holset VGT turbo controler

Looking to find a controler to operate a holset vgt turbo it is now controled by a electronic actuator and would like it to stay that way but if not we are going to have to convert them to boost control

the doner eng from witch the turbos came from is a volvo vg600hp inline 6 16L
we are putting 2 of them on a Mack e9 998cu v8 one on each side of the eng so 4 cyl will push each turbo looking for arround 55psi boost from the pair.

any help will be appriciated even a lead on someone who may know somthing about it

Regards,

Brian

Fleece Performance has controllers for a few Holset turbos, I think TS might actually do the electronics for them. Supposedly they are doing various other VGTs too so it can probably be done one way or another.

Holset's controllers are pretty much the same across the range from the HE351Ve up to the HE561Ve.

I doubt they would push 55psi safely though, the 561 might do 45psi. You'll have to keep an eye on shaft speed.

using 2 of them at the same time blowing into one will allow it to make 50-55 safe and the blow off will be set to 60psi
the fleece unit will only work with can bus vehicles we are running a no electronics and no ecu
what controlers are you refering to? as for shaft speed we are only using 4 cyl to push each of the turbo's on the hot side and the 2 cold sides in to one intercoooler should be the correct restriction's to help keep the us from overspooling

Does anyone know what are the specs of the electronics on the turbo acctuator?
ie: PWM, anolog voltage, anolog current, range, feedback loop, ???

Found this a few months back when I was looking into a VGT swap. Dont know if the guy ever got it working correctly but some good reading about the actuator and controller.

Holset VGT HE351VE Controller - HomemadeTurbo - DIY Turbo Forum

jugghack2 said:

using 2 of them at the same time blowing into one will allow it to make 50-55

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VGT doesn't work as the secondary in a compound. All it will do is choke the output of the HP turbo and make it slow to respond.
Since you likely mean as a parallel twin setup, no, 2 into 1 does not alter their pressure ratio. 55psi will still overspeed them.

safe and the blow off will be set to 60psi

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A BOV isn't needed on diesels. The only people that "need" them are the jokes that don't know how to drive turbodiesels right and jump off the throttle often.

as for shaft speed we are only using 4 cyl to push each of the turbo's on the hot side and the 2 cold sides in to one intercoooler should be the correct restriction's to help keep the us from overspooling

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Nope.

Does anyone know what are the specs of the electronics on the turbo acctuator?

Click to expand...

CANbus.

What kind of RPM are you going to turn?

Yep using 2 of them in parallel side by each and not compound

55 psi should not overspin them as the volume in the eng is smaller due to 2 turbos trying to feed pressure

blow off is required when there is not proper control of the turbo so it allows the boost to go someware rather then overspooling the unit or breaking the shaft due to over boost

Would like to know how a 94 post dude is the know it all of the site we are dealing with a 1500hp truck at 4000+ft/ib torque 998 cu V8 Diesel

and what kind of an answer is CANBus I'm and electronics Technologist and building circuits is my gig so maby Info like voltage control agorithum and other things that are used to properly control this rig AS STATED NO CANbus on this RIG

Hope that is clear enough for the Nobs




Dmax we are turing it at 4000 RPM and have installed springs to allow it to get there
we are also injecting distilled water to cool the burn(no alchool) the truck is used for drag racing up in quebec canada race circuit

Thanks for the link BigD will check it out and keep the fourum up to date on the matter

jugghack2 said:

55 psi should not overspin them as the volume in the eng is smaller due to 2 turbos trying to feed pressure

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Volume has nothing to do with pressure ratio.
Look at ANY turbo's compressor map and you'll see RPM goes up drastically with pressure ratio regardless of flow.

so it allows the boost to go someware rather then overspooling the unit or breaking the shaft due to over boost

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If you don't jump off the throttle there won't be surge.

Would like to know how a 94 post dude is the know it all of the site we are dealing with a 1500hp truck at 4000+ft/ib torque 998 cu V8 Diesel

Click to expand...

To those that know very little, somebody that knows a bit more than them can appear to know a lot.

and what kind of an answer is CANBus
I'm and electronics Technologist and building circuits is my gig so maby Info like voltage control agorithum and other things that are used to properly control this rig AS STATED NO CANbus on this RIG

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You asked "Does anyone know what are the specs of the electronics on the turbo acctuator?"
The answer is CANbus. The actuator is its own computer. It receives a request from the ECM to set vane position at xxx% closed and the actuator controller does the computing of how to do it. It also sends data to the ECM about actual vane position, actuator temperature and number of cycles. It can even do its own diagnosis and fault codes when connected directly to a standalone diagnostic computer.
There is no voltage, amperage, frequency or modulation signal that will tell the actuator what to do. It requires a digital computer signal, hence the name, Controller Area Network bus.

AS STATED NO CANbus on this RIG

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Than you will either have to make one or design your own actuator.

Hope that is clear enough for the Nobs

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Is it clear enough for you to understand? I hope I've spelled it out enough this time.

You have not stated what model of turbo you will be using. But if you look at Cummins' compressor maps you'll see only the HE500 series (HE551V, HE551Ve, HE561Ve) are capable of 55psi boost (4.76 pressure ratio at sea level) in your engine's flow range. Given the 16L engine it came off of, its a good bet its an HE500.

If you look at the map (attached picture) you'll see the flow range its capable of pushing 55psi is VERY small, between 0.38-0.5kg/s. That means that ANYTHING outside of that flow range at that pressure ratio will either be in surge or overspeed.


Use this to help understand how engine and turbo flow works, its already setup for a Mack E9: Not2Fast: Turbo Calculator

Here is a calculator to convert LB/min to KG/s: Mass Flow Conversion

You will see that with half the engine flow, 1500-2000rpm is right in the flow range for 55psi with an HE500. However from idle-1400rpm trying to make 55psi will cause the turbos to surge.

I'm not a "knowitall", but I do know turbo and engines.

Jugghack, with all due respect, you need to back off C111, because you're obviously not an expert either and you're asking for help.

If you are using the "Ve" version of these Holsets, C111 is right, it is digitally communicated with and you cannot friggin' hook up an analog signal to it and make it work. That's why you don't see everyone and their brother making Holset VGT controls.

Now, if you are just using the "V" version, on the original truck that is pneumatically actuated with a controller that you can buy, or alternatively, you just set up some kind of mechanical wastegate-style actuator like others have done on this site (search is your friend).

As for where you will be on the compressor map, if you'd answer the question of what RPM you will be turning the Mack, I can help you. What you're doing on a Dmax is kinda irrelevant to that calculation.

Or, if you really don't want help, just keep arguing with everyone.

the Dmax was a refrence to your name and the RPM is 4000 for the Mack

as for Backing off I get defensive of the way I'm responded to it's natural on the net as there is not personal expresion transfered. but when a person is looking for info to solva a real problem a one word answer is not alwase the best nor is saying stuff is not needed on a diesel when insted a question should have been asked why do you think you need this???

you are correct I'm am not a expert on the topic and have done a lot of serching in lots of threds on the matter I'm Greatly thankful for the Link you posted as it has given me the info I needed to make a controler to run the 2 turbos with one map input at the same time I will probly use the controler to control my water injection system rether then Hobbs switch

I will try to send an email tonight to get the model numbers off of the 4 donated turbos from our sponser to the race team and will post my findings
just remember that when looking at the compressor map that it's only 4 cylinders of the 998cu that is driving each of the 2 turbos Much like the Banks LLY duramax setup only there is only one intercooler and one intake manafold.
the truck has headders on it already

any info on a 5+ bar map ? 12 volt with resistance style output
we are looking at maby changing to international acctuator or doing like MR Civic in the write-up with a brushless motor controler and a feed back circuit and a PID Closed loop control in the program

looks like I will need 2 inputs to control the motor 1 feedback form actuator position and map pressure. any others?

We used 2 on a 16L Volvo at work, its about 1300hp they should work for you as well if you can find a way to control them. PM me you contact info and I will try to get an engineer from work to contact you. Here is a video of the Volvo and Mack

The Volvo went 14.69@99 with trans issues and our other truck is a single turbo E7.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5B2ey1MdXM

Whoops...sorry, I got the Dmax reference...geez I musta been asleep when I typed that.

I ran the numbers through the calculator, and with normal intercooling, or heavy water injection, and at 55 psi, you will be a long way off the map of the HE5XX - you're looking at 112 lb/min each side (and thats with a conservative engine VE of 0.67). At PR = 4.7, these are only going to be happy to ~90 lb/min. To get to where you want to be, you're going to be spinning them close to 120k rpm...

Lots of turbos are run FAR off the map, but VGTs are generally not known for being sledgehammers, so about all I can say is, you're going to be pushing the ever living snot out of them.

jugghack2 said:

the RPM is 4000 for the Mack

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nwpadmax has the math right. A Pair of HE500's can't flow even remotely enough air for a 16L engine at 4000rpm and 55psi, even in the most ideal scenario you'll be pushing them far beyond the limit of their capabilities. If you were to maintain the "stock" 2000rpm redline they would just barely be adequate.

If you plan to run 4000rpm and want to maintain 55psi up to that speed you'll need either a pair of HX60 (minimum) for single stage, a pair of HX82 as compounds or two more HE500's.

Personally, I vote for the quad HE500 VGT turbos, that would be kick-ass.

Timebomb Cant PM yet don't have enough posts and I'm not spaming just to get there that is why I haven't done so yet. Thanks for the tube clip I think I seen it befor once but its nice to get the low down on what it is.

and also wantend to thank C111 and nwpadmax for the great info

I Recieved some more info on the turbo's form a friend and Volvo/Mack this weekend. It had info on max vain travle vs boost and set points for proper control of the setup as well as some other info and I was wrong about the setpoint of the vain wall as for 4000 RPM the dwelling poin think of it this way it's only there for a split second to launch the truck off the line the it's an 1/8th mile drag up hill to the finish line and there is know comparison to a pull truck that picks the best gear off the line to get the best distance after the truck is done overreving and ripping and snorting all the way there in one gear. LOL

here is a clip of the truck with the current setup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it0TvoRq8kA

Well, the pertinent question is, "what RPM does it carry down the track?"

Because if it's closer to 3000 rpm, then you're not going to be so far out on the compressor maps.

Down the track doesn't matter when 4000RPM for even a second will overspeed the turbos enough to grenade the compressor wheels.

C111 said:

VGT doesn't work as the secondary in a compound. All it will do is choke the output of the HP turbo and make it slow to respond.
Since you likely mean as a parallel twin setup, no, 2 into 1 does not alter their pressure ratio. 55psi will still overspeed them.

Click to expand...

Did you mean primary?
// nilsson

Depends on who you ask. Thats why its better to refer to them as the High Pressure or Low Pressure turbo.