'51 Super C rebuild

06 DIESEL

06 DIESEL

Dead Eye Firearms LLC
So my '51 Super C blew a head gasket and I was not aware. It won't start anymore, has spark and fuel but no compression. Not sure what is wrong internally but it is going to get a complete rebuild.

Now me being who I am I can not leave well enough alone. I see that the "standard" complete rebuild kit takes the pistons to 3.25" taking it to a C-135 engine vs the factory C-123 with 3.125" pistons. The sleeve bore is 3.43" for the lower section OD.

I see several people put a C-153 engine out of a combine/504/etc in as a complete replacement, then you have to bore for a pilot bearing for the clutch in the crank as well as rework the hood/water system/fan etc.

The C-153 is the same basic block as the C-123 but is a sleeveless block. Does anyone know if I can bore the C-123 to the same piston size as the C-153 and just run it as a sleeveless block? What about rods and the crank? I would think I could just change the pistons, maybe have to change rods, but the crank should be the same. I still have more research to do before I start on this project, and get the lawn furniture out of the other bay of the garage so that I can have room to tear this one apart and rebuild it.

Anyone done this or know anyone that has?

I am going to start poking around the antique tractor pulling circuit around here and see what others have to say. I would really like to keep it factory on the outside since I typically show it at tractor shows and don't want the purists to get their panties in a wad.
 
Some more information as I search around.

Factory Super C (C-123)
Bore/Stroke is 3.125x4.00 inches

Factory 504 (C-152)
Bore/Stroke is 3.375x4.25 inches

Factory 560 (C-263)
Bore/Stroke is 3.5625x4.3906 inches

The sleeves in a Super C on the outside measure 3.43" or 3.30" depending on the casting number that I have to verify when I get home tomorrow night.

If figuring for a 3.43" sleeve dimension

A stock C-152 piston is smaller than the take out for the Super C sleeve. I know for the C-152 you can get .010, .020, .030, and .040 over pistons that are readily available. A .040 oversize piston would make it 3.415 with a piston to wall clearance of .015. That is a little loose, even in the racing world.

An H has available overbore pistons for a 3.437” bore. This would only mean taking out .007 after taking out the sleeve.

Looking at other factory options as close to 3.43 as possible I find that the IH 560 has a Bore/Stroke of 3.5625x3.6875 inches. If I kept the Super C rods with a stroke of 4" and was able to squeeze in a factory piston for a 560 with a piston to wall clearance of .006 it would give me 40.01 cubes per cylinder so 160 overall. Factory the Super C is 30.8 cubes per cylinder. This would require me to be able to bore the cylinder an additional .1385, including the .006 piston to wall clearance.

If figuring for a 3.30" sleeve

The C-152 piston will require the bore to be taken out to 3.375 plus .006 for piston to wall clearance so 3.381. This would give me 35.91 cubes per cylinder for 143.64 cubes for the engine. This is just a little under the factory c-152 due to factoring in the factory stroke of the Super C instead of the 504.

As far as compression ratio’s I am kind of lost as to how to figure that, but the internet is a beautiful thing. I do not know enough about the parts of the engine to be able to figure the compression ratio but I can guess at everything on the table and get close to the factory compression ratio and then change the bore size and keep everything else the same if using the factory C-123 block.

By doing that, changing it from the 3.125 factory of a Super C to the 504 piston bore of 3.375 it take it from 6.0x to 6.9x. Changing it to .030 over 504 pistons takes it to 7.00. Putting in 560 pistons takes it to 7.56. Putting in the H overbore takes me to 7.05. I know that the higher the compression ration the more power you should technically make. Keep in mind that I did not change anything other than the bore size when figuring this, there will be slight modifications to the piston top from one factory piston to the other which will change the compression ratio.

Now for the piston pin I cannot find much on it currently but I did find the dimensions for the following
Super C – Pin Diameter .919"
H – pin diameter 1.312”
504 – ???
560 - busing diameters .875" I.D., .935" O.D.


I am going to use this thread as a way of tracking my research and my final decisions and the rebuild. Sorry for the beginning being slow and I am sure that I will lose several of you by the time I get this started. Hopefully I get it figured out and start playing with it within a few months.
 
I don't know anything about old tractors but I'm sure the hardness of the sleeve is much harder than the cast iron holding it. Sounds like alot of work how much of a power increase would it get going bigger?
 
Might be a long shot, but you could try calling some of the engine builders the antique guys use. I'm drawing a blank on them at the moment, but try looking up the hook magazine, I think some of them advertise in it. Murphy might be one?

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A friend of mine knows a guy that pulls a Super C and is working on asking him about his. I made it very clear to him that I will not be trying to pull against him, I just want to show it and plow with it. Waiting on hearing back from him while also doing more research.

I am sure that the sleeve is harder than the block, but the C-152 is a sleeveless block and is the same casting material as far as I can tell, but I am not done looking into that yet.

If I stick with going the 504 piston route I might could still be able to put in a sleeve if I go standard bore with the pistons there is still enough area in there to slip a sleeve in.

My goal is to get 40ish HP out of it. More is better, but harder on the down the line parts.
 
Your only looking for 20 more horsepower .they are 6.1 compression stock machine work on the head would be easier clean up ports mill head check into valves ,rework your intake to accept a super h carb then you'll need 12 volt electronics .trying to bore sleeve and still use some is not great hard to keep true bore and you cut all the hardness layer out .hardblocking helps but not what your looking for .diamond pistons is an option JJ will make you some high compression ones
 
Undrwr said:
Your only looking for 20 more horsepower .they are 6.1 compression stock machine work on the head would be easier clean up ports mill head check into valves ,rework your intake to accept a super h carb then you'll need 12 volt electronics .trying to bore sleeve and still use some is not great hard to keep true bore and you cut all the hardness layer out .hardblocking helps but not what your looking for .diamond pistons is an option JJ will make you some high compression ones
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So how far would you raise the compression on a working engine? Thats kinda been my plan with my M, bump the compression, and clean up the head, I'm only looking to be in the 50-60hp range with it, the machine shop I called said that should be easy enough.

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If there is an easier way, I am all ears. Biggest thing I do not want is no reliability. I want to drive it in parades, plow with it, and strap it to a PTO dyno. The less that is visible from the outside the better.
 
Move up to 9.1 you will have to do some math on cc of head now it's a shame c s never came in propane .weve got two super c bought new one with quick hitch they are really handy .what kind of budjet do you have it used to be 100.00 a hp added but that was a long time ago
 
A friend of mine pulled a turbo off of a Subaru and slapped it on a C, if I recall correctly it made about 60hp at 10psi I think. Obviously that's not what your wanting to do, but it was neat. The stroke advantage will be what you will notice the most if bumping up cubes. I have seen many C's with the c153 in them and never noticed a difference, but I defintely not a Farmall guru.

I would vote for finding a 153, bumping compression up to 8-9:1 via decking the head, and calling it good.
 
Total budget is the cash I have laying around from selling stuff I do not need. Right now I think there is $1200 in the safe. I would hope with me being able to do most of the labor, and a friend with a mill just up the street I should be able to get to my goals without breaking the bank.

I have been looking for a C-153, they came cast as two different bell housings, one for the tractors that is bigger than the Super C, and one for combines and wind rowers, which is the same as the Super C.

If all else fails I found that you can get a 3.43" piston from a Saturn or Toyota car, not sure on the pin diameter of them though yet.

Still waiting to hear back from the local puller, as well as have time to check my block for the casting number to find out which casting it is with 3.43" sleeves or 3.30" sleeves.
 
I think you should be able to do it in that budget. When I last called about have the engine in my M done, was quoted $2600 for a complete rebuild including re-grinding cam and lifters. That was for me to drop of a complete long block, and get back a 50-60hp "working" engine.

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Turbo

KEYSTONE TURBO LLC, tractor turbos, antique tractor turbo

I know they don't have turbo kits for super c's but maybe jpipes might be interested. Never know, maybe call and see if he has something in the works. There are few guys around me that like them. I have never ran one personally but I was raised on farmalls and have 4 of my own. I mow the yard with a super c and that is when I started to like mowing lol. I also have a pulling M that is around 100+ hp and I wouldn't want to do any work with it. What I am getting at is make sure u don't go too crazy where it's not practical to use if that's your intentions. Overbore and step piston kits give a nice bump but I don't know what's available for c's. Subscribed and good luck.
 
milkman said:
KEYSTONE TURBO LLC, tractor turbos, antique tractor turbo

I know they don't have turbo kits for super c's but maybe jpipes might be interested. Never know, maybe call and see if he has something in the works. There are few guys around me that like them. I have never ran one personally but I was raised on farmalls and have 4 of my own. I mow the yard with a super c and that is when I started to like mowing lol. I also have a pulling M that is around 100+ hp and I wouldn't want to do any work with it. What I am getting at is make sure u don't go too crazy where it's not practical to use if that's your intentions. Overbore and step piston kits give a nice bump but I don't know what's available for c's. Subscribed and good luck.
Click to expand...
I've actually called and talked to them! But my engine is worn-out, needs a full rebuild before something like that. It's a '48, great grandfather bought it in '53, M&W kit in the engine in '54, dad was born in '60, says to date it's on the 3rd or fourth set of tires that he knows of. Wish it had an hr meter, still starts quick and runs smooth, but smokes on startup, and has plenty of blow-by under heavy load.

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J-Pipes said:
I've actually called and talked to them! But my engine is worn-out, needs a full rebuild before something like that. It's a '48, great grandfather bought it in '53, M&W kit in the engine in '54, dad was born in '60, says to date it's on the 3rd or fourth set of tires that he knows of. Wish it had an hr meter, still starts quick and runs smooth, but smokes on startup, and has plenty of blow-by under heavy load.

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Click to expand...

Sound like it's already de-compressed for the turbo...

Chris
 
Lol, sounds like you are ready for a whistle. That's pretty cool to have a third gen tractor. There are three things you keep around, guns, ground, and tractors. Sorry to hijack but enjoy talking tractors, especially red ones.
 
Yeah sorry for the derail, but yeah the turbo setup would be fine for me! But if I remember right, I need to have the engine done first because they have something like four different turbos for the M-450 kit. So it's definitely still in the back of my mind, but need to have the engine done first.

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