Building a Performance Marine Engines

Depending on the size we could mill them.

Hi Eric. The issue is they are both 'lightweight' torque-monsters.

Both 6 & 8 weigh only 980kg and have a volume of ±1.8L/hole, and they are long-ish motors (44" or so along the pan), so that is where the flex, vibration, mechanical failure happens when the engine is pushed. It is very foreseeable issue.

Would you have to make a mold? Plaster of paris? Then use a pantograph to get the 90% rough-out done?

Would different, stronger, heavier journal caps and better fasteners (along with a third set of motor mounts) stiffen the crank a good bit?
 
^was going to say I bet they could. Haven't really made up your mind on the class yet? I would think that decision would have an effect on the hull design, however I am a few hundred miles from the big blue. Most 'boats' around my area are more like dingys. I was hoping you were going to come back for an update, keep us in the loop. :Cheer:
 
^was going to say I bet they could. Haven't really made up your mind on the class yet? I would think that decision would have an effect on the hull design, however I am a few hundred miles from the big blue. Most 'boats' around my area are more like dingys. I was hoping you were going to come back for an update, keep us in the loop.

Some 'problems' you just have to brute force, then do something different, some you can de-tangle by studying the rules - and what they SAY (and sometimes more importantly) what they DON'T say.

UIM Class rules cap VOLUME
UIM Class rules have minimum weights

The way the rules are written includes both a diesel bias (weight), and a blown BBC bias (induction penalty).

(It also helps a lot if you have a little maths, and know that physics is physics, and no matter how you wish it otherwise, physics IS physics.)​

Other than length and some cosmetics and a few design gizmos on the hull which may/may not help, offshore boats are all pretty much the same: pointy on the front, vee-shaped on the bottom and ±8' wide (trailerable).

Now and that said: Length matters, and length not only means length, it means weight, too.

Remembering 'physics', above:
- lighter a/o shorter boats are faster, because they have less wetted surface, are faster;
- longer a/o heavier boats 'take' seas better.

Momentum and inertia get heavily involved too:
- shorter/lighter accelerate & run faster, but they also slow down faster and gets bounced around more,
- longer/heavier boats accelerate poorly and are slower, but run straighter and stay in the water better.

When you are in the air, or being tossed about, zig-zagging few degrees left or right, you are not keeping speed up and going to your single goal.

... BUUUUUT ponies matter too. If you have a bigger team, you can haul a longer wagon just as fast and ignore pebbles and small potholes. :)

These are not pleasure boats, they are built to run FIRST, not run FAST, and are built FOR, BY and AROUND the rules of a specific class.

... for example, take C Class, limited to 13L (meaning you cannot run a BBC), therefore your gas-engine hp will be limited to 600? 500? (Dunno. I'm not a gas-engine guy.) And the boats will (usually) be in the ±35' length.

A typical C boat on a lake is a 90-100mph boat; offshore? way slower.

Assuming 'normal' seas, the C boats (that finish) will run 5+ mph slower than the B boats (BBC or Ilmor V-10 and ±40') who are also 90-100mph lake boats.

The difference is ponies + length, as the boats are within a ton of each other in total mass.

If I want to put a pair of 800hp Cummnins B into a 45' boat and run C, 's'ok, I can run 60-70kts in any seas, and I'll be faster than all of the C AND B ... unless the water is flat. Oh well, that's racing.

B class is the champagne class, where most of the competition is, but the same overpowered, heavier, longer boat can run in either C or B class.

When you are not constrained with how much HP a given number of Liters can produce (Gas v. Diesel, yanno), you can consider longer, more efficient, heavier hulls.
 
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Hi Eric. The issue is they are both 'lightweight' torque-monsters.

Both 6 & 8 weigh only 980kg and have a volume of ±1.8L/hole, and they are long-ish motors (44" or so along the pan), so that is where the flex, vibration, mechanical failure happens when the engine is pushed. It is very foreseeable issue.

Would you have to make a mold? Plaster of paris? Then use a pantograph to get the 90% rough-out done?

Would different, stronger, heavier journal caps and better fasteners (along with a third set of motor mounts) stiffen the crank a good bit?

We need the engine block here or a print. Assuming you do not have a print we would need the block. From there we would develope a 3D model based on all the engineering criteria. Then we would machine the bedplate on our CNC.

With out knowing much about the these engines it is hard to exacty answer your questions. But typically stronger main caps, and studs will help. The materials, and design of the bedplate also make a difference. A third mount may help but that will depend on how you are mounting it in the hull, and weather or not the mount could twist on the bedplate.
 
Ding, Ding, Ding

First, thanks ALL. There is no way I could get de-ignorantised without your thoughts, encouragements, and even your 'Yes, but ...' mattered and registered.

We are going the dreadnought route. Pin a target on our back and say Come get all you can eat ... if ...

The hull will be a 46' Cigarette, build by Douglas Marine, strong, light, stable and ... fasssst.

Engines will be old Lobsterboat boat anchors, from the early 90s. Isotto Frascinni V-1308 T2, twin turbo, mechanical V-8, 13.4 liters, 980kg, 2700rpm, 58"x46"x46", 763 commercial hp, 880 military.

- 4 bolt mains
- wet sleeve & steel piston
- replaceable piston-squirters
- flat cam, 2 valves, per
- non-cute pushrod placement
- marinised already, and fairly easy to dry-sump

I talked to three mechanics that worked on these, for both commercial fishing purposes, and as racers (I had no idea lobsterboats raced, neither.)

Never a rod, never a head ... the only issues were the fall-offs: water & fuel pumps, cracked brackets, weld failures on intake manifolds, exhaust manifold cracking ...

The simulation models say that at 85% of 1340hp a side, heavy (>1500# of fuel), this go-fast will run 85kts in 6' and faster in flatter water ... until we have to put another $5000 of pusholene in it.

We are shooting for February completion, and if anybody is in NoCal, when we're testing ... come, ride and say, "YOU are nuts, man!"

Yeah, I know that already.

As this progresses, I will keep everybody posted.

Again, thanks

Bob
SW1
 
I didn't read thru all of this but, i don't know what i can say here as testing with a company now, but i work with boats and motor companies and there is a cummins project using there 6.7's

I can't say much more than there is a issue with heat running them in the off-shore racing world which i seem to have addressed but certain parties either don't or won't hear it.
This particular set up are twin 6.7's around 750hp, using arneson drives at 45', boats great, and runs at 85mph, handles and runs nice.
But my area is the driveline of alot of offshore boats and companies and seems motor guys aren't hearing me and they keep melting stuff, but this is at the extreme use which is where you'll be.
Cat had a offshore boat, miss argentine, i am not sure what they did differently but seems the idea for the fix just isn't getting thru.
Another test is happening this week.

The problem isn't rods, caps, cranks, it's heat
 
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... I can't say much more than there is a issue with heat running them in the off-shore racing world which i seem to have addressed but certain parties either don't or won't hear it. ... seems motor guys aren't hearing me and they keep melting stuff, but this is at the extreme use which is where you'll be.

Hi, keep the info flowing ... actually managing heat is pretty easy, but it is neither simple nor cheap (what is?).

You build a 20-30gsl sea chest or two and keep them filled with independent raw water pickups, then PUMP from the sea chests to the oil, transmission and fuel heat exchangers.

The engine, itself ... start by throwing away the 'water pump', welding the freeze plugs shut, and putting PD pumps pushing AND pulling water at 35± psi. You will never see 140º.

OR, with a QSB, use a water-to-water exchanger, but add pumps.

Cat had a offshore boat, miss argentine, i am not sure what they did differently but seems the idea for the fix just isn't getting thru.

Actually la Gran Argentina was an FBDesign, FB DESIGN: FB 55' - Silicon Fire , and it had various power combinations in it's several dresses.

Basically, my boat will be a modern re-make of la Gran Argentina and I have studied the boat carefully.
 
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¿ What is the difference between a 6BT and a QSM? Are they the same motor, (essentially), but mechanical v. electronic?

I'm working on another project.
 
Hi, keep the info flowing ... actually managing heat is pretty easy, but it is neither simple nor cheap (what is?).

You build a 20-30gsl sea chest or two and keep them filled with independent raw water pickups, then PUMP from the sea chests to the oil, transmission and fuel heat exchangers.

The engine, itself ... start by throwing away the 'water pump', welding the freeze plugs shut, and putting PD pumps pushing AND pulling water at 35± psi. You will never see 140º.

OR, with a QSB, use a water-to-water exchanger, but add pumps.

Im not sure what i can discuss openly here about some things, but i had ideas i gave them and it kinda didn't seem to hit.
it's getting another change and they expect to have 100mph. twin 6.7's on arneson drives. The heat issue isn't the oil and block, air in is the heat, but im thinking they're trying to solve it without adding more to the boat which was my idea of building a new design for the housing and for the cooler. I think im starting to understand them as they want to make it like their other boats you buy it and run over 100mph and dont need to have umpteen other possible things to go wrong and ruin something.
I'll see what happens next week for the 100mph test
 
Im not sure what i can discuss openly here about some things, but i had ideas i gave them and it kinda didn't seem to hit.
it's getting another change and they expect to have 100mph. twin 6.7's on arneson drives. The heat issue isn't the oil and block, air in is the heat, but im thinking they're trying to solve it without adding more to the boat which was my idea of building a new design for the housing and for the cooler. I think im starting to understand them as they want to make it like their other boats you buy it and run over 100mph and dont need to have umpteen other possible things to go wrong and ruin something.
I'll see what happens next week for the 100mph test

Yeah, I know what they are wanting to do - it is the holy grail of sport-boat makers - offer an optional diesel package to Mercury that performs like blown BBC, looks somewhat the same and only costs 25% more.

Did I get it right?

You can do some (hidden) creative ducting inside the hatch to direct more air toward the intakes, and make sure you have PLENTY of outflow, but if the engine guys are making WOT +10% from a QSB, they are fiddling the ECM, RPM and HPCR, but that intake plenum is ALWAYS going to be a heat issue between cyl 1 & 2.

Go to OSO, this thread and pour a tall glass of your fave beverage and read. Diesel engines in speed boat

In the middle, somewhere is a discussion abt Cummins 1 & 2 cylinders, the issues and the fixes, but it is a MUST READ, anyhow for anybody wanting to put diesels in a go-fast.

Trying to make a diesel engine-room look like a Mercury is pretty counterproductive, but it is popular!

bob
 
Yeah, I know what they are wanting to do - it is the holy grail of sport-boat makers - offer an optional diesel package to Mercury that performs like blown BBC, looks somewhat the same and only costs 25% more.

Did I get it right?

You can do some (hidden) creative ducting inside the hatch to direct more air toward the intakes, and make sure you have PLENTY of outflow, but if the engine guys are making WOT +10% from a QSB, they are fiddling the ECM, RPM and HPCR, but that intake plenum is ALWAYS going to be a heat issue between cyl 1 & 2.

Go to OSO, this thread and pour a tall glass of your fave beverage and read. Diesel engines in speed boat

In the middle, somewhere is a discussion abt Cummins 1 & 2 cylinders, the issues and the fixes, but it is a MUST READ, anyhow for anybody wanting to put diesels in a go-fast.

Trying to make a diesel engine-room look like a Mercury is pretty counterproductive, but it is popular!

bob

Engine room is pretty and technically nicer than 2 or 3 reg gas mercs, i can get pics of that.

.
 
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