Building a Performance Marine Engines

45' and 18,000 Lbs? 2000hp is not even getting you close to that speed in 0-1' seas.. Not even getting into carrying enough fuel to satisfy two B series running at their edge for 6 hours.

Sure it will. Look at the video in the post below this one. That's a 13,000# 43' boat with Ilmor 725s at about 110 in 3-5'

With a heavier boat, how long it takes to get on plane is the biggest hassle.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSu4nSbpBwg"]2008 Round Britain Powerboat Race - YouTube[/ame]

This is a 41' boat, 20.000# with 2 FPT C-90 - 650hp: 750n.mi in 17hrs on 600gal in some nasty seas.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_HZ4mYKOmY"]FB Design - FPT - Record New York - Bermuda - YouTube[/ame]


Life Happens Outside.
 
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Thats some impressive stories. Fasteset Bermuda to Oregon Inlet was achieved 2 years ago on the "SEA TOY" a spencer yacht. Made the trip in a day. weather was beauitful. averaged 40.4kts. lots of fuel C32 cats.
 
Shifting gears and drinking beers! Much more epic on the water.


Sent from my Saxaphone


Wow, I hate to be the one to crush this dream.... lol
Props draw about 8x the TQ for every doubling of RPM.
That means, if you size a prop to draw the full engine power at full speed, there is no need for any transmission speeds at all.
 
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Wow, I hate to be the one to crush this dream.... lol
Props draw about 8x the TQ for every doubling of RPM.
That means, if you size a prop to draw the full engine power at full speed, there is no need for any transmission speeds at all.

yeah
more-or-less
'perzackly
kinda-sorta

Trans are a big issue, and the weak link and some choices have to be made.

In the very best of all worlds, ZF would make a 2sp transmission ... oh, about 1.5 : .8 ... that would handle BOTH: high RPM and big TQ. It ain't happening. Any variety of a B-W 72c is pre-shrapnel.

Pat Weismann, Traction Products http://www.weismann.net/ makes a race-proven dry-sump auto transmission, but this application is a little outside the parameters, so far. He is working on it.

Marine has some limiting factors that press the chemical properties of steel. This is what surface drives look like when they are working:

big wave testing for endurance run - YouTube

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of1RY4M8VqM"]back view - YouTube[/ame]

The upper limit on draining hp from these engines will be shaft-speed: when the tips of the wheels go supersonic, efficiency goes south, and pieces can fall off.

I can match several rpm bands with torque curves and then get propellers made for that combination. I guess the best way to think is the propeller is a torque-converer? The most efficient prop for 3300rpm & 700ft.lb. is NOT the same prop for 4000rpm & 250ft.lbs.

Transmission is still the weak link, and a crash box may be the only real solution.

It's a process.

Bob
 
QSL? Common rail? I know that the Moose boats here in the Bay Area order 600+ hp...
I believe they powered that catamaran that traveled around the world, and sunk on Whale Wars?
1300ft.lbs at 3500rpm?
 
QSL? Common rail? I know that the Moose boats here in the Bay Area order 600+ hp...
I believe they powered that catamaran that traveled around the world, and sunk on Whale Wars?
1300ft.lbs at 3500rpm?

I think the specs on the nee: Earthrace, (Ady Gil when Paul Watson sunk her) was powered by a pair of MCD (at the time) 400kW early-version QSC 8.3L, 3000rpm and had a single speed ZF 300 series. Top speed when Calibre, NZ made her was ±30kts, but it was a wave-piercer, not a go-fast.

Mine will be a mechanical 6.3L 'B', 12V & P7100 not HPCR, very conservative ±8-900hp at 3200, pretty flat torque curve, 1000-1100hp @ 4000turns.

Most of those Bay Boats are using bone-stock 'C' 8.3L making a very conservative, published 593hp, I'd guess.

Bob
 
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First off, I know that one of the problems and solutions of these boats is the capacity to carry enough fuel. Otherwise a gas turbine or a blown big block Chevy would make way more power if it wasn’t so thirsty. I think you need a light weight efficient motor that will allow more fuel capacity on the boat.
The diesel engine has a BSFC of around .20 to .25 compared to .45 to.50 on a typical gas motor. Any heavy diesel engine would negate the advantages gained by the fuel savings. I know what I would do. The Cummins is just too heavy. Electronic engine management would be critical, to fuel savings. I would also use synthetic diesel in that it carries more BTU’s of heat energy per lbs. Duty cycle power management would also be necessary. I would use a Duramax based power plant. It would not be a big engine and weight would be the part of the design. I would use a aluminum bock, but it would not be a LSM block, I don't think they would be up to the task. your talking half a million for a pair and a spair motor program . lots of dyno time.
 
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First off, I know that one of the problems and solutions of these boats is the capacity to carry enough fuel. Otherwise a gas turbine or a blown big block Chevy would make way more power if it wasn’t so thirsty.

yes, no & depending. If it is a slick-water a/o speed game, sure: gas HP rules. If it is in seas, there is only so much power can be applied/used, but yeah, amount of fuel is a limiting factor, too.


I think you need a light weight efficient motor that will allow more fuel capacity on the boat. ... Any heavy diesel engine would negate the advantages gained by the fuel savings. I know what I would do. The Cummins is just too heavy.

not necessarily. "Sufficient" Mass is absolute necessity in an endurance boat, both for structure and inertia. I CAN get a 43' boat built that is as light as two sofa pillows and a popcorn fart, but that would be like burying gold bars in a swamp.

As you indicate further down, mass (when planned and placed) is valuable and necessary.

Torque matters in marine. A fully wet boat and with a half-load run abt the same fast. You burn more fuel heavy, of course, but then you creep back up to 2miles/gallon with the same settings, and maybe 1-2mph more.

That is a real difference between gas and diesel in endurance. The gas engines are more subject to breakage at heavy + redline. That is an open secret Buzzi has used for years: get out in front and make them stress the equipment.

Electronic engine management would be critical, to fuel savings.

I'm not so sure. In fact, HPCR actually carries a ±10% overage. Bosch says 'up to 10%' but b/c of all the other changes necessary to run HPCR, it is not apples-to-apples comparison. I-F, SeaTek and FPT say it is at least 10%. HPCR cuts down on smoke and noise. It is not more efficient.

I would also use synthetic diesel in that it carries more BTU’s of heat energy per lbs.

You're peeking over my shoulder, aren't you? Shell and BP (among others, I'm sure) make a +140k BTU kerosene, and Shell, anyhow, is willing to discuss additional Cetane and lubricity.

... I would use a Duramax based power plant. It would not be a big engine and weight would be the part of the design.

Regardless of Gale Banks blathering abt how the DM is all things to all people, near and far, wet or dry (or should be, anyhow), the ONLY successful marinized DM comes from Finland, and is rated VERY conservatively, less that 400, IIRC.

Hot DM for Inshore? As a diesel variant of a Merc 725, maybe, but why? Out of sight of land, no way. Not until somebody else has run them 10,000 hrs under load.

I would use a aluminum bock, but it would not be a LSM block, ...

Forget the aluminum LSM for a second. I can make a 12V, P7100 'B' at +800hp for ±1000lbs. Innovation sells all the 5.9 600hp they can make, and those are substantially de-tuned. True, the only Cummins part# in them is the crank, but the CGI block is Cummins spec to the gnat's whisker, same weight.

I don't know what a fully maranized DM weighs, but it can't be too far south of half-ton, can it?

I know their (Innovation's) kinks (well, mostly, anyhow, there is some mil-secret tuning but it's trivial), and that is pretty much what I am doing. It's conservative, really.

LSM Aluminum Blocks cost $12k, btw. Dan Scheid (who has built more LSM blocks than anybody) says that as far as he is concerned, with my conservative build, a 2000hr life on Al is not an issue ... but he does not think they would be rebuildable for another 2k, where a castiron Cummins would be.

I don't think they would be up to the task. your talking half a million for a pair and a spair motor program . lots of dyno time.

Yeah, offshore racing is not for the faint of heart, not thin of wallet. You have to have at least one spare motor, plus plenty of parts. Scheid thought a ± number for an Aluminum build would run about $70@, and that not only includes the internals: Hamilton + C-Tech, P7100, Mahle Steel tops, but also includes some metal work, moving the starter and getting rid of the belt for the generator, water-pump and PTO.

My bare hull will be in the 6.000# range: extra-heavy bottom and top made of spider-silk and ghost turds. Fitted dry, with a pair of cast iron Cummins 5.9 blocks, controls, electronics, capsule, fluids, safety gear, etc., double that.

1,000 gal of fuel is another 3½ tons, but the first ton of that will go pretty fast, and the only runs I think of that will come close to needing over 500gal are Venice-Montecarlo, NYC-Bermuda-NYC (with a fuel stop, of course), and KW-Cancun-KW.

FWIW, the diesel engine that I think will end up being incredibly special for all kinds of stuff is that 'New' Light RAM diesel, the VM Motari 3.0L. At 300hp, it is WAAAAY de-tuned, weighs less than 500# and is tiny enough to fit in the back of your Wranglers, with enough space left for a can of Skoal.
 
You sir have done some homework!

Good reads in this thread.

Sir, thank YOU!

I have learned a lot, here, and talked with several of the respondents who helped de-ignorantise me.

Yeah, it is a lot of effort, and a shoe-box full of money, but more importantly, actual lives of people I know and like are at stake, too.
 
This is hands down on of the most interesting builds I've seen in quite some time, I'll be following it! I am quite impressed with the knowledge you have on the subject already Bob. Maybe I scanned over it, but out of curiosity what are your plans for inter-cooling? A sea-water fed air to water I imagine?
 
This is hands down on of the most interesting builds I've seen in quite some time, I'll be following it! I am quite impressed with the knowledge you have on the subject already Bob. Maybe I scanned over it, but out of curiosity what are your plans for inter-cooling? A sea-water fed air to water I imagine?

Thanks. I have been spending a while listening to smart a/o experienced people, and studying what boats get more podiums, and why. The de-ignoratising process is fun, if not frustrating sometimes.

Time-line? I am wanting this to come together by 1 July, next year, tested and run-out, with at least a couple hundred hours on hull & haul. The hull will take 180days, rigging another 45 and I am not quite ready to commission yet. Building the engines will be 120days.

There are some 'dependings' on cooling, too. Oil is easy: dry sump with heat exchanger dunked in a box of cold sea-water. Water will depend on Aluminum block or Iron. Iron, there is the option to be raw-water cooled, but there are some build issues with pressure & temp variance as well as grit and weed and impeller maintenance.

ATP, a closed system, water-to-water exchanger makes sense, and would be required for Aluminum.

Does anybody know what Cummins MAX internal water pressure is? The stock circulation pump is 15psi, I think, but a p.d. pumped system would be closer to 30-35 I believe.

One issue is fuel-cooling that I have not addressed, yet, but should not be too hard.
 
yes, no & depending. If it is a slick-water a/o speed game, sure: gas HP rules. If it is in seas, there is only so much power can be applied/used, but yeah, amount of fuel is a limiting factor, too.




not necessarily. "Sufficient" Mass is absolute necessity in an endurance boat, both for structure and inertia. I CAN get a 43' boat built that is as light as two sofa pillows and a popcorn fart, but that would be like burying gold bars in a swamp.

As you indicate further down, mass (when planned and placed) is valuable and necessary.

Torque matters in marine. A fully wet boat and with a half-load run abt the same fast. You burn more fuel heavy, of course, but then you creep back up to 2miles/gallon with the same settings, and maybe 1-2mph more.

That is a real difference between gas and diesel in endurance. The gas engines are more subject to breakage at heavy + redline. That is an open secret Buzzi has used for years: get out in front and make them stress the equipment.



I'm not so sure. In fact, HPCR actually carries a ±10% overage. Bosch says 'up to 10%' but b/c of all the other changes necessary to run HPCR, it is not apples-to-apples comparison. I-F, SeaTek and FPT say it is at least 10%. HPCR cuts down on smoke and noise. It is not more efficient.



You're peeking over my shoulder, aren't you? Shell and BP (among others, I'm sure) make a +140k BTU kerosene, and Shell, anyhow, is willing to discuss additional Cetane and lubricity.



Regardless of Gale Banks blathering abt how the DM is all things to all people, near and far, wet or dry (or should be, anyhow), the ONLY successful marinized DM comes from Finland, and is rated VERY conservatively, less that 400, IIRC.

Hot DM for Inshore? As a diesel variant of a Merc 725, maybe, but why? Out of sight of land, no way. Not until somebody else has run them 10,000 hrs under load.



Forget the aluminum LSM for a second. I can make a 12V, P7100 'B' at +800hp for ±1000lbs. Innovation sells all the 5.9 600hp they can make, and those are substantially de-tuned. True, the only Cummins part# in them is the crank, but the CGI block is Cummins spec to the gnat's whisker, same weight.

I don't know what a fully maranized DM weighs, but it can't be too far south of half-ton, can it?

I know their (Innovation's) kinks (well, mostly, anyhow, there is some mil-secret tuning but it's trivial), and that is pretty much what I am doing. It's conservative, really.

LSM Aluminum Blocks cost $12k, btw. Dan Scheid (who has built more LSM blocks than anybody) says that as far as he is concerned, with my conservative build, a 2000hr life on Al is not an issue ... but he does not think they would be rebuildable for another 2k, where a castiron Cummins would be.



Yeah, offshore racing is not for the faint of heart, not thin of wallet. You have to have at least one spare motor, plus plenty of parts. Scheid thought a ± number for an Aluminum build would run about $70@, and that not only includes the internals: Hamilton + C-Tech, P7100, Mahle Steel tops, but also includes some metal work, moving the starter and getting rid of the belt for the generator, water-pump and PTO.

My bare hull will be in the 6.000# range: extra-heavy bottom and top made of spider-silk and ghost turds. Fitted dry, with a pair of cast iron Cummins 5.9 blocks, controls, electronics, capsule, fluids, safety gear, etc., double that.

1,000 gal of fuel is another 3½ tons, but the first ton of that will go pretty fast, and the only runs I think of that will come close to needing over 500gal are Venice-Montecarlo, NYC-Bermuda-NYC (with a fuel stop, of course), and KW-Cancun-KW.

FWIW, the diesel engine that I think will end up being incredibly special for all kinds of stuff is that 'New' Light RAM diesel, the VM Motari 3.0L. At 300hp, it is WAAAAY de-tuned, weighs less than 500# and is tiny enough to fit in the back of your Wranglers, with enough space left for a can of Skoal.





The aluminum block I was speaking of is tremendously stronger the copy in aluminum of a stock block that LSM did. The block is billet aluminum and have replaceable sleeves. There are aftermarket heads for the Duramax come on the market in the next few months from two major mainstream cylinder head manufactures. With these blocks and heads and a reasonable short stroke, 3.600 the piston speed would be lower and aid longevity. The electronic is the only way to go with 40 degrees of timing swing on the fly vs. fixed timing. Now to the fuel, The Shell LM 24 is no longer available, or available if you have a quota. I would use a blend of GTL Syndiesel and canola oil.
 
Does anybody know what Cummins MAX internal water pressure is? The stock circulation pump is 15psi, I think, but a p.d. pumped system would be closer to 30-35 I believe.

This is going to depend on your freeze plug set-up. Stock heads have a nasty tendency to toss them out when turning higher rpms.(Obviously mechanical water pumps increase pressure with RPM, hence electric pumps used in many motors) I'd love to give you a PSI range, but I can say we've never had a gauge on one that we've thrown freeze plugs out of. And I don't feel confident enough to take a guess.
 
Don't know diddly about Offshore Racing...

Just subscribing to learn something...


oh, and the thought of 6' swells at 60 KTS makes my kidneys hurt...almost as bad as Trophy Truck Whoops at 40 MPH...
 
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