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Old 08-22-2018, 08:24 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Signature600 View Post
I've NEVER heard or seen an S300G be laggy....or seen anything close to an HX35 and 300hp be anything but a great setup at 40K lbs let alone 9K running empty with an automatic...

Not sure how you came to this, because I have seen the exact opposite in all regards.
Chris
a lot of "seen" around here, but have you done it?

i'm not saying 300hp and an hx35 isn't a great setup in a 1st gen, because it is. i'm saying I dont think it will be great in a 9k lb excursion when the OP is looking for something more than that setup will give him. I think 300hp is a turd in a 9k lb truck. thats also the top end of the setup and the bottom end of his desired power goal.

also, i've had 2 different variations of the s300g on my truck with 3 different sets of injectors and yes, they're lazy turbos w/ a VE.
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:57 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j.fondler View Post
a lot of "seen" around here, but have you done it?

i'm not saying 300hp and an hx35 isn't a great setup in a 1st gen, because it is. i'm saying I dont think it will be great in a 9k lb excursion when the OP is looking for something more than that setup will give him. I think 300hp is a turd in a 9k lb truck. thats also the top end of the setup and the bottom end of his desired power goal.

also, i've had 2 different variations of the s300g on my truck with 3 different sets of injectors and yes, they're lazy turbos w/ a VE.
Yeah, but not at 9K. My truck weighed 9500lbs and the trailer empty weighed 10,500lbs. We'd put any load on it we needed to haul, upwards of 45K lbs gross...No problem at 322hp with the torque the VE made, other than stopping it...


I don't believe an HX35 is the best charger for this, but to say it would not do it easily is ludicrous IMHO. Also, ALL of these turbo suggestions would be greatly affected by the choice of torque converter....if he's using the factory 7.3L converter then it will be loose enough that it won't matter what charger he's running...

Chris
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Old 08-22-2018, 01:52 PM   #23
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My experiences echo Signature 600’s as far as 300 odd HP and or the Borg 57’s.

I will add that I had no problems with my first gen towing 15k lbs with a 58mm HX35 hybrid/14cm on both stock intercooled sticks and 190s.

As far as my former s300g and the current SXE 57/65, they barely tow, if at all, and are both somewhat far removed from being turds. I do flow more 12mm VE cc’s than most; pump AFC tuning, head work and converter stall are all part of the equation to optimize just about any combination of air/fuel.
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Old 08-22-2018, 10:40 PM   #24
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You can also just drive it with the stock turbo and see how you like it if you're worried about response. Should be good with 300rwhp at least with injectors.
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Old 08-22-2018, 11:39 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by JQmile View Post
You definitely don't need much turbo to max out a VE fueling wise, I usually run a little more timing than most too. If you want a little more oomph, water/meth does OK on VE's and helps on high end fueling. I think an HX35 would probably be a good start. I ran a 60mm compressor upgrade for a while way back when and liked that too.

Edit: 5x14's or 5x16s are decent injectors that shouldn't smoke. I had some 6x16s and they hazed at idle just as an FYI.
Some how I missed this the first time. I plan to run stock injectors initially, but everyone seems to think 5x.014 would be a good balance. I have a rebuilt 58mm HX40/35 on the shelf, I just need a housing and a downpipe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by badbowtie View Post
My ve starts way faster than my p pump. You might look into the he351w. It is slightly smaller than the 351cw, but uses an exhaust housing like a hx35 so you could use any housing size available for a hx35. That should eliminate the high drive pressures killing your mileage.

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Is the HE351w the same as the HE341? Does it use a HX35 downpipe as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokinVE View Post
Is there any pressure regulators that offer true 2:1? If that was installed on the AFC line that would help with cruise MPG’s.

How does AFC live actually work? Possibly an answer to the above question....

M H Inc. - Dynamic Timing Device
This is the timing spacer, it adds dynamic timing.

Once you really get into this build we’ll discuss bumping your case pressure ����
Yup, my plate is pretty full right now. Once it's up and running then I'll get into the meat and taters of the pump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by j.fondler View Post
Stock injectors and an hx35 will get you 300hp and will feel gutless on the top end.

A 60mm hx35 is a great turbo. I’ve built 4 or 5 of them. Matched with a 5x13vco, it’s a fun little setup in a light truck with no towing.

I think what’s being disregarded in a lot of these suggestions is the fact you’ll be lugging 9k lbs around, not 5k like a d250 1st gen.

If anyone thinks 300hp and an hx35 is a great setup, go put 4K lbs in the bed of your 1st gen and talk to me after a week.

The s300g might be a good towing turbo for 2nd gen people, but they’re loose(read. Laggy) on the exhaust side and kind of turds on a 1st gen, imo. That would be exacerbated by your weight.

I know compounds seem like a big undertaking but doing it once and while doing the swap would certainly help.

I’ve had a lot of different turbos and injectors in multiple trucks with a VE, auto and manual, towing and not.
Good info, I'm glad you are considering the weight. Thankfully the Excursion has 3.73's vs the 3.54's most 2nd gens have.

I wouldn't mind compounds, and I have a set on another 12v, however I am trying to keep this build reasonable to start out. That way I am not chasing multiple bugs. The trans controller, conversion stuff, A/C, etc will be my first hurdle. I will likely go with a single to get this thing off the ground and possibly make small adjustments from there. If compounds are necessary [which they are for sure with heavy towing 12v's] then I will head down that path. However I am hoping it can be done with a single. I haven't had a single on a Cummins since 2008ish. I actually love my compounds on the 1997! It's an old Ollie Poole setup. Tows great!

I've got a 58mm 40/35 that I need to snatch a housing for. I know, it's not a 60mm, but it's here and willing. Then it comes down to 12cm vs 14cm.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Signature600 View Post
Yeah, but not at 9K. My truck weighed 9500lbs and the trailer empty weighed 10,500lbs. We'd put any load on it we needed to haul, upwards of 45K lbs gross...No problem at 322hp with the torque the VE made, other than stopping it...


I don't believe an HX35 is the best charger for this, but to say it would not do it easily is ludicrous IMHO. Also, ALL of these turbo suggestions would be greatly affected by the choice of torque converter....if he's using the factory 7.3L converter then it will be loose enough that it won't matter what charger he's running...

Chris
322rwhp and pile of torque should be pretty good for us. The truck ran decent around 285rwhp with 7.3L torque which seemed weak. I'm hoping for more than that with better mileage.

I am hoping to order a converter from Phil tomorrow and a valve body to match. I'm not sure of what stall he would like for this, but my 1997 ran perfectly with a stock stall [1800 I think] with a tighter fluid coupling. The one I had before that [Suncoast 44 series] was too tight, flashed around 1500rpm and pushed EGT's up before the turbo/motor could catch up. The worst was the DTT single disc 89% or 91% or whatever they called it. It flashed and starting lugging around 1250rpm, smoked a ton and barely moved for 3-4 seconds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ofelas View Post
My experiences echo Signature 600’s as far as 300 odd HP and or the Borg 57’s.

I will add that I had no problems with my first gen towing 15k lbs with a 58mm HX35 hybrid/14cm on both stock intercooled sticks and 190s.

As far as my former s300g and the current SXE 57/65, they barely tow, if at all, and are both somewhat far removed from being turds. I do flow more 12mm VE cc’s than most; pump AFC tuning, head work and converter stall are all part of the equation to optimize just about any combination of air/fuel.
That gives me some hope for the 58mm hybrid I have on the shelf. Thanks for the info!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JQmile View Post
You can also just drive it with the stock turbo and see how you like it if you're worried about response. Should be good with 300rwhp at least with injectors.
Considering it shares the HX35 downpipe I might start with the stocker even if only for comparison. I do love the sound the H1C makes when you come off the pedal...
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:38 AM   #26
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I really like the hx35, just seemed from your initial post that it wasn’t going to be enough turbo for your goals/use of the truck. It seems we have maybe lowered those expectations some.

The he351cw uses a 4.4” exhaust flange.(I think you asked this a couple posts back)

What are the specs on the hybrid?

I’ve put together 4 or 5 60mm hx35s now and they’re always really good IMO. I think a 58 would be nice as well. What wheel is it? I use the he351cw compressor wheel(60x86mm) with the proper machining of the bearing housing and comp cover. I’ve run that turbo with a 12cm gated, 12cm ungated, 14cm gated, and 16cm gated housing, all on an auto truck. Granted, it weighs about 5k lbs but even with a stock converter it was extremely responsive. With a 5x13vco it was almost too much fuel but very manageable.

I wouldn’t want anything more than a 14cm housing.
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Old 08-27-2018, 02:35 PM   #27
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One of the best chargers I ran on my non-ic ve was a hx-super40 16mm housing.

I later ran a htt64 with a 13cm ss housing and hated it, I ran so hot. This was on stock non-ic
sticks.
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Old 08-27-2018, 02:59 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12vchevydually View Post
One of the best chargers I ran on my non-ic ve was a hx-super40 16mm housing.

I later ran a htt64 with a 13cm ss housing and hated it, I ran so hot. This was on stock non-ic
sticks.
Yeah, I think that S478 runs better than that 64 did...

Chris
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Old 08-31-2018, 07:01 PM   #29
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Yes the he351w is very similar to your hybrid turbo. It uses the same exhaust housings as a hx35 so yes a hx35 down pipe works. Since you have that hybrid I wouldn't bother switching it out for a 351w.

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Old 09-07-2018, 02:40 PM   #30
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Yeah, I think that S478 runs better than that 64 did...

Chris
Heck i think the s478 would run better as a single then the 64 did. It wasn't horrible just ran way hot.
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:35 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by j.fondler View Post
I really like the hx35, just seemed from your initial post that it wasn’t going to be enough turbo for your goals/use of the truck. It seems we have maybe lowered those expectations some.

The he351cw uses a 4.4” exhaust flange.(I think you asked this a couple posts back)

What are the specs on the hybrid?

I’ve put together 4 or 5 60mm hx35s now and they’re always really good IMO. I think a 58 would be nice as well. What wheel is it? I use the he351cw compressor wheel(60x86mm) with the proper machining of the bearing housing and comp cover. I’ve run that turbo with a 12cm gated, 12cm ungated, 14cm gated, and 16cm gated housing, all on an auto truck. Granted, it weighs about 5k lbs but even with a stock converter it was extremely responsive. With a 5x13vco it was almost too much fuel but very manageable.

I wouldn’t want anything more than a 14cm housing.

It's a 58mm HX40 wheel and cover I believe on a HX35 center/exhaust wheel. I figured that and a 12cm or 14cm housing would be pretty good to get this project on the road. I don't intend to be fully modded and meet all of my peak goals right out of the gate. I have alot to learn with this motor/pump not to mention trans tuning, wiring, and the physical swap itself.

Speaking of converter Phil at DPC is thinking around a 1600rpm stall. Sounded a little tight for 8500lbs, 3.73 and 285 tires, but he forgets more about converters than I'll probably ever know.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 12vchevydually View Post
One of the best chargers I ran on my non-ic ve was a hx-super40 16mm housing.

I later ran a htt64 with a 13cm ss housing and hated it, I ran so hot. This was on stock non-ic
sticks.
I love the way those Super40 turbos sound. If they were not about the same price as a S357 or S360 it would be a fun one to try on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by badbowtie View Post
Yes the he351w is very similar to your hybrid turbo. It uses the same exhaust housings as a hx35 so yes a hx35 down pipe works. Since you have that hybrid I wouldn't bother switching it out for a 351w.

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True, it seems like the gains would be rather minimal on paper compared to the work to convert over.
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Last edited by Bersaglieri; 09-11-2018 at 10:37 PM.
 
Old 09-11-2018, 11:19 PM   #32
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Also, I have been contemplating the fuel system. I think the current fuel lines are 3/8 feed and 5/16 return. The 7.3l setup has an electric pump that would likely be removed or bypassed to use the mechanical setup. I'm not sure of the current pump pressure but clearly I prefer mechanical pieces so I really doesn't matter. Leaving the rest as is, I could splice into those lines and just connect them to what's on the motor right?

Will a stock pump draw and feed ok in that situation? What's the story with these "low pressure piston pumps" being talked about.


If I was going to change more, I have the big truck style filters, filter heads, and 1/2" fuel line in a tote somewhere. At that point I'd be tempted to start from scratch and run a sump simply due to the stock sending unit issues that can turn the engine off around a 1/4 tank. That was a bad Saturday...
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Old 09-12-2018, 07:19 AM   #33
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The 1600 will be ok in this single application, esp with 3.73 gears.

If you're adding a primary under the HX35 hybrid at a later date, I'd go with 1800-1900 right off the bat.

Quote:
Speaking of converter Phil at DPC is thinking around a 1600rpm stall. Sounded a little tight for 8500lbs, 3.73 and 285 tires, but he forgets more about converters than I'll probably ever know.
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Old 09-15-2018, 10:19 PM   #34
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The 1600 will be ok in this single application, esp with 3.73 gears.

If you're adding a primary under the HX35 hybrid at a later date, I'd go with 1800-1900 right off the bat.
Sounds about right.


Stumbled onto this cruising around Power Driven Diesel. Is there a reason more VE guys don't run a K27? Borg Warner K27 Turbocharger (450HP) | Power Driven Diesel Oddly I can't find an exhaust housing size for it anywhere.

• 58/83.7mm Forged Milled Wheel (Compressor)
• 7/7-blade design compressor
• 70/58.83mm 12 Blade Inconel Wheel (Turbine)

Click the image to open in full size.
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Last edited by Bersaglieri; 09-15-2018 at 10:20 PM.
 
Old 09-16-2018, 07:27 AM   #35
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I believe its either a 11 or 12 cm equivalent turbine housing.
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Old 09-16-2018, 08:24 AM   #36
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I read a few other places, just wasn't sure how accurate it was.

The next question is which turbo would be ideal on a flipped manifold? That is the best way to clear all the items in the engine bay. I like the compact design of the HE351. The discharge is tucked in and the housing is small, but I will likely have to fab up something for the wastegate, maybe a spring style gate.
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Old 09-27-2018, 10:57 PM   #37
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I've been doing a decent amount of turbo research. Seems the HE351w, HX35/40 58mm hybrid, and K27 are rather close relatives. Similar size wheels, housings, flow, except the K27 has a stronger design than the Holsets. For the cost of an 12 or 14cm exhaust housing I could have a 58mm HX40 cold side with HX35 core and exhaust side, which makes spending $900+ for a K27 or HE351w seem like a waste in my situation.

Then you get into the 60mm Holsets like the Super 40 or the HE351cw. One is arguably too loose on the hot side and the other too tight. 14cm exhaust housings for a Super40 are stupid rare or custom and the HE351cw either needs the hot side ported and/or a custom exhaust wheel installed to help exhaust flow.

Then there are the S300 series. The older 57mm S300g flows less on the cold side than a HE351 but more on the exhaust. A trade that might be worth it if 2-3mpg are at stake.

I have summarized all of this to build up to the last and most expensive "small" turbo I've been researching. The SXE S357. Essentially a 57/65/12 [or 14]. It supposedly flows with the HE351/Super40 on the cold side but retains the better flowing exhaust of the S300g or 65mm Super 40 wheel. Now, these are just numbers and theory since I haven't had any of these on a VE motor, but it could be the turbo that bridges the gap. It is the most costly option which might be why I have yet to see anyone use it on a VE motor. Most, not all, VE guys are very budget minded and would rather run a HE351cw and sacrificed some MPG. Of course I want the best of both worlds. Perhaps I am the guy dumb enough to give it a shot...

From my calculations I should be between 2000-2100rpm on 70mph highways and 1700-1900rpm on 60mph highways. For reference of cruising RPM.


With the motor on the stand, what do you guys recommend I do as far as seals/gaskets/maintenance? It has 250,000 miles on it. Some 60lb valve springs? Set the valves? Some new seals? I even considered a cam. Some have told me to do a head gasket but my stocker on the 1997 is holding fine. I hate to pull the head for no real reason.



j.fondler : What gears and tire size does your VE powered Excursion buddy run? Some of those gas EX's has tall gears in them.
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Old 09-28-2018, 09:24 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bersaglieri View Post

I have summarized all of this to build up to the last and most expensive "small" turbo I've been researching. The SXE S357. Essentially a 57/65/12 [or 14]. It supposedly flows with the HE351/Super40 on the cold side but retains the better flowing exhaust of the S300g or 65mm Super 40 wheel. Now, these are just numbers and theory since I haven't had any of these on a VE motor, but it could be the turbo that bridges the gap. It is the most costly option which might be why I have yet to see anyone use it on a VE motor. Most, not all, VE guys are very budget minded and would rather run a HE351cw and sacrificed some MPG. Of course I want the best of both worlds. Perhaps I am the guy dumb enough to give it a shot...



With the motor on the stand, what do you guys recommend I do as far as seals/gaskets/maintenance? It has 250,000 miles on it. Some 60lb valve springs? Set the valves? Some new seals? I even considered a cam. Some have told me to do a head gasket but my stocker on the 1997 is holding fine. I hate to pull the head for no real reason.
Do the S357 if you want to buy one, you'll be pleased I think.

If you can afford it, put a cam and 60lbs springs in it, just because...other than that, the pan gasket will probably start leaking as soon as you put it in, even if it's dry now, and especially if you try and put a new one in it. I really wouldn't worry about anything else.

Chris
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Old 09-28-2018, 01:05 PM   #39
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I wouldn't bother with a replacement cam for your intended application.

Besides, the stock first gen cam is the rowdiest one out of any of the 5.9s' factory cams.

Personally, I think pulling your head & doing some cleaning up of the area just below the valve seats is worth the time & effort of R&R.
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Old 09-28-2018, 02:58 PM   #40
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Me personally, I'd like to see it be around 2,000 rpms at 75, not 70mph. Especially since you've talked about efficiency with your wife driving it.

I know it's not apples to apples but cruising in the duramax seems to sip the least if you can stay below 2000rpm as much as possible. 2200rpm I would think would get thirsty, especially pushing that 8000# brick.
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