VExcursion - Daily Driver Edition

[Bersaglieri]

The DPC triple disc converter is here and I was planning to do an inspection on the Allison internals after buttoning up the motor. If the internals check out, it'll probably get some updates, a Transgo kit, and be run as is.

Rough measurements are leading to be think the driveshafts might be ok at their current lengths. What helps with that is the electric fans and the ability to move the motor front or back a few inches with the slotted motor mounts.

Jason will likely do the wiring harness and tuning. I am still trying to dig up used plates to curb the overall cost, but as time passes it looks like I'll be buying new.

I am still trying to decide which will be more painful. Installing the motor and trans as one or doing the Allison install on the floor with a transmission jack.

[zachu812]

Originally Posted by Bersaglieri

Remember when I posted that I didn't see any cam wear?

That is the last lobe on #6. I found a 1/3 of the same on the nose of one more lobe. Part of me says "Yup, that's my reason to yank the cam and stab a Hamilton in." The other says "It'll probably run another 200,000 miles and by that time it'll need more than a cam replaced anyways."

What do you think? The motor is on the shop floor waiting to go in, it just needs the oil pan put on.

I found almost the same thing on my cam last time it was out, ~270k on a stock 24 valve cam. Didn't have the time or money to replace it so it went back in, worried about it for a while and ended up talking to someone about a new cam. They convinced me that there was nothing wrong with what I had and the looks were the worst of it.

[79powerwagon]

If i had my engine out on the floor theres no way i would run that cam.

Maybe a pushmower yeah.

[Bersaglieri]

The Allison got rebuilt, the clutches weren't terrible, useable, and about par with the story I got about the trans when I bought it. But we figured an upgrade was in order since it was out and Cummins torque just beats stuff up. C1 through C5 got replaced with Alto G3 clutches, we finished the 'half of a Transgo JR' done by the previous owner, pump mods, and other small upgrades.

I felt like I was making progress again, and setting the valves was the final step before the motor went in. Hmm, when 3 and 4 are almost to TDC the motor stops. I pulled the pan, then the timing cover, then pump gear, pulled the lash out, pulled the injectors, nothing made sense. Then I pulled the head...

.


.


.


.





I cannot for the life of me understand how water, moisture, or whatever got in there, but during the time it's been in my garage it must have rusted #4. There is a slight, barely noticeable haze of rust in #3. The seller sent me a video that showed this motor running, so I don't think it showed up like that. My buddy thinks the headgasket may have leaked, the seller didn't notice it, and coolant or water was just sitting in there. Then it just sat too long. The manifold was on with tape on the end, the intake side was plugged with a rag, injectors in, and I see no signs of rust except some oxidation on the head. None in the runners of either the exhaust, intake, or manifold. I figured it water got in there it would show some rust.

Anyways, I have a friend's shop who is pretty good with Cummins motor stuff. I'm going to take it over there, have him look at it and see what we can do. I'm hoping for the best, but being in it this far I feel like a refresh might be in order.

[Snedge]

Not sure that rust will hone out man, looks pretty pitted in the picture.

[RacinDuallie]

Originally Posted by Snedge

Not sure that rust will hone out man, looks pretty pitted in the picture.

Agreed looks like its been awhile.

[Bersaglieri]

I didn't think it would hone out either guys. I took it to my local Cooter Davenport and he too thought it was toast. He hit it with the hone and to our surprise it smoothed out. There is still some discoloration in that cylinder but nothing you can feel with your finger. We are planning to hone the others and do rings, pistons, bearings, seals, etc. He said the other cylinders looked great as did the rods and crank which are standard sized.

Part of me says have the block tanked, bored, and honed at the machine shop since I'm doing pistons anyways, but this is my first Cummins rebuild so I'm not sure what the best route is. How far is too far and I'm just pissing money away for my mild goals?


I know being a fix-em-up shop sometimes they aren't concerned about the extra stuff, for them it's usually in and out as cheap as possible to get peoples trucks and tractors back up and running. So, I'm trying to make sure I've got my performance bases covered while it's on a shop floor.

I'm thinking a Cummins head gasket, with a good Mahle/Clevite or Interstate Mcbee kit [Shop was going to go Reliance brand], possibly head studs or at least new bolts. I don't think I'm at the o-ring status on this motor, nor do I think it's worth porting the head for my goals. I'm not sure what the options are on studs having never bought them. My other 12v is a stock long block top to bottom at 500ish at the rear wheels with no issues.


The cam is out and I'm having a hard time justifying putting it back in for what a 178/208 goes for, to spite the growing pile of money I'm dumping in at this point. It should help the V/E [no pun intended] of the motor with a stock head. Plus, I already have new 24v tappets, and the head has 60lb springs and new valve seals installed.

The progress has been slow but I think it's about speed up.

[Signature600]

Do a cam. Best money you can spend on a 12v

Chris

[bracker8040]

Don’t use Interstate Mcbee stuff

[Bersaglieri]

I'm sold on the cam, the 12v suffers from V/E issues and that is a good way to improve it. Plus, now it's out so no excuses.

See, I've never heard of Interstate Mcbee. Reading up on it, some people love it and some hate it. During my google searches GAmes on CF said he had repeated issues with their kit during his million mile motor journey. Mahle/Clevite seems to be considered the better stuff, which is what I've used alot in gasser rebuilds. I can't afford stuff with "C" on the box. Well, except the headgasket, I'm gonna eat it on one of those.



Snedge/Racin - The plan was to hone it and blow it together, now I'm considering dropping it off and having a machine shop go through the head and block. Do it once and right. I think the headgasket was not factory so it might have a mating surface issue that caused it to leak again. It also means the stock bolts might be noodled after the unknown number of retorques. I need to stop guessing and just start fresh.

[06 DIESEL]

If you are building it to be reliable and trouble free, spend the money now while it is out and cheaper VS trying to save a nickle that costs you a dollar down the road.

If it was me I would have it tanked, bored .20 over and rebuild it so you have a brand new everything, that way you know it has 250k+ of reliable miles ahead of it.

[Bersaglieri]

Update:

Motor is in line at the machine shop to get tanked and checked over. Not much else to update on, got plenty of other projects to mess with.

[Bersaglieri]

I need some input on stock bolts vs new stock bolts vs head studs vs oring. My other 12v is a totally stock long block down to the valve cover gaskets and it's held up to 78psi in the past with no head gasket issues. However, I understand that is not to be expected in most cases.

What do you guys think I should do? Either going to run that 60/68/12 or small HX35/?? compounds. I know the Cummins gasket is highly recommended, what about the rest? ARP or a different brand? ORing?

Thanks guys, still waiting on the machine shop.

[bracker8040]

Originally Posted by Bersaglieri

I need some input on stock bolts vs new stock bolts vs head studs vs oring. My other 12v is a totally stock long block down to the valve cover gaskets and it's held up to 78psi in the past with no head gasket issues. However, I understand that is not to be expected in most cases.

What do you guys think I should do? Either going to run that 60/68/12 or small HX35/?? compounds. I know the Cummins gasket is highly recommended, what about the rest? ARP or a different brand? ORing?

Thanks guys, still waiting on the machine shop.

ARP’s torqued to 140 ft lbs with ARP lube, Cummins gasket, flat head, and 2 hot retorques, is what I recommend for an application like this.

[Red Sleeper]

Power Driven Diesel compared the IFG head studs to a set of ARP 625's. For a budget minded build, maybe consider IFG studs.

[Bersaglieri]

Originally Posted by bracker8040

ARP’s torqued to 140 ft lbs with ARP lube, Cummins gasket, flat head, and 2 hot retorques, is what I recommend for an application like this.

Standard ARP studs should be fine right? What about Haisley or A1 versions? I was going to run stock bolts doing the Garmon thing, but it seems that's not common anymore.

Is machining the pedestals still required?

Originally Posted by Red Sleeper

Power Driven Diesel compared the IFG head studs to a set of ARP 625's. For a budget minded build, maybe consider IFG studs.

I couldn't find IFG 12v studs, but I think 625's are out of my budget for this build. I thought those were for big boy builds, not a mild VE.

[Bersaglieri]

Stopped by the machine shop. The crank got polished and the block needed .040 on the cylinders and I think he said they took .006 off the deck.

The head is up this week. They'll check the normal stuff do a valve job and resurfaced likely. I debated some mild bowl and exhaust porting but I'm not sure if it's worth the time/money to send it somewhere. Probably just leave it be at this point unless I can get my buddy to do a quick grind on it.

Anyone used this guide? I'm thinking we could just port the "collars" out behind the valves for a "Stage 1."
Dons Dodge Cummins Forum




Rebuild parts questions:

Being green at the diesel rebuilds, how do I determine which head gasket to choose? I'm used to measuring piston depth and calculating quench, SCR, effective compression, etc in gasser builds. I want a Cummins one of course.

Do I need different injector washers depending on the gasket?

How much will this effect my PTV and camshaft options?

Piston oilers: Should I look at aluminum ones or just stick with plastic?

Any final advice on head studs? I was told by a few to buy Haisley so I don't have to machine the rocker stands.

[Red Sleeper]

I’ll reply with what I do know. Your seat of the pants dyno probably won’t feel the effects of porting the head in this application. Unless you feel like wasting time, I’d skip this step.
Your already at the machine shop, have the rocker pedestal’s machined and be done. Buy a set of 425’s (new or used) and go forward.

The block was bored .040” over?

[ofelas]

Un shrouding the valves definitely makes a difference on a butt dyno, let alone on an uncorrected unit.

No negatives with low end/towing/spool.

[WUnderwood]

open sesame