70440charger
New member
First off, I am a long time CD Stalker but never a poster. Usually, if I look hard enough, I can find someone who has had my same issues. But I am at some what of a loss.
This is 2 years worth of story so you might need a more comfortable chair. It is a story of tuning, tuning, and lots of time spent testing theories.
My truck runs well but not great. And that is what is killing me! I can best describe it as lack luster. It will start to put you in the seat but that is as crazy as it gets really. It will make 5psi by 1700rpm, 10psi by 2100+- and 45 ish 2700 where it will stay through that gear shift. Grab the next gear and it is the same thing all over. I have tuned and tuned and tuned over the last 9 months but nothing really changes. There is some low ( When I had the pump benched the guy said the "no where fuel was @ 200cc) smoke, some mid range smoke as the turbo is lighting and the top end is clean as a whistle. Sound pretty close to right on except there is never that feeling where it really get after it.
It consistently get about 17 MPG but is not anything like what most of you guys describe from similar set ups. I know this isn't an apples to apples comparison but is no where as fast as a 09 6.7 3500 4x4 6 speed that only had a 5" inch exhaust, S&B air filter and a h&s tuner. --
Currently it will not do a rolling burn out from any speed. I thought that might be because of the DRW so i took off 2 tires and it still does not have enough oomph to break the tires loose. Now is an excellent time to point out that I am not one who wants to go sliding around like an idiot but i use it as a measurement of power. A stock single 235/80/17 on back ought to be easy to break loose since it is not super wide. Again, I am not saying I want to do burn outs every time I accelerate like a teenager but I am trying to give you all something to measure against. This is my fun/ dd truck and I have taken about 2 years to research and build it so that everything would be done right. I turn the wrench myself and this was not the first Cummins I have built but I did spend a lot of time talking to other people who know way more than I will ever know. I am the first one who will say that I could have made a mistake somewhere!
Help me figure this out!
Here is the low down on how the motor is built:
BODY is a 2005 Dodge Ram 3500 4x4, 6 speed with SB dual disc ceramic, Valair upgraded Hydro
Guages:
- Isspro Pyrometer/boost/ fuel
Block:
-95 12 valve block bored .020"
- ARP 4203 studs
- ARP 14mm main studs
- ARP Rod bolts
- Balanced crank and rods
- Total rebuild +- 7000 miles on the motor now
Head:
-95 magnafluxed, decked, new valve seats set to .055"
-Mild at home port and polish ( my 3rd Port and polished cummins head and a lot of time studying), I feel like this is the best one I have done yet.
-Port matched exhaust side and exhaust manifold
-#60 springs
Cam:
- Hamilton 188/220 broken in with Hamilton's zinc additive
- Degreed
Pump:
-180hp purchased new from Freedom as New old stock.
-4k gks
-Moded the washers, afc foot and the fuel plate to a #100.
-Benched @ 300cc with all mods and the stock 181's
- Timed to 21 degrees ( I have also tried 17*)
Injectors:
- Currently running 5x.016 DAP 145*
- Have also run 5x.014 DAP 145* injectors
---- Both injector make the same PSI and only deference driving is the 5x16 have more smoke down low and spool the turbo about 50-100 rpm sooner. Both sets of injectors are totally clean up @ WOT Highest psi to date was 47psi for a second with the 5x14's
Lift pump:
- stock lift pump being fed by a walbro 392 with a inline Donaldson 2 micron filter. I generally see 50 psi
Turbo:
-Super B Special (64/71/14) port mached to exhaust manifold
Exhaust Manifold:
- Ported Industrial 12 valve exhaust manifold to keep the factory Common rail turbo location
Exhaust: 5" turbo back
So here is everything I have done:
Waist Gate:
First got the truck running and it smoked all the time. So I tuned and tuned- nothing cured the clouds of black smoke when i got on it. It would make 43 psi but there what way too much smoke. i finally found out my waist gate was set too low and was pushing open at 10 psi. I raised that to 50 psi using shop air.
Cylinder Head:
It was still smokey and hazed all the time. I pulled the head and found out the Chinese cylinder head I had bought brand new was warped from the factory ( We bought 2 at the same time and the other was still sitting in the shop so we check it) and I had a blown head gasket. I had my machine shop deck my factory head, put in new seats, and recess them to match Hamilton's specs (.055"). I thought that might help the power because the chinese head was way too far down (like .089 valve face depth) Got it back and ported it. Put on the truck and it was much happier but it really didn't make much of a power difference.
I bought another .010" over gasket but I am not currently seeing any signs of a bad HG.
Injectors:
At the same time as I did the head work I sent the 5x16 sac back to DAP to have them checked. The piston looked like the injectors were spraying out of the bowl @ 21* of timing. The checked out fine but Because of a mix up I when several months running my brothers brand new 5x14 sac injectors. I now have my 5x16's back and there is no real change. Just more low end fuel and a little more mid fuel up to about 2000rpm.
Governor springs:
I first put them in using the caliper method and set them to the factory settings. I wrote the .00" on the box the gsks came in and also counted the clicks. I later checked the box and saw my old writing that said .047 on one spring and .071 on the other. I knew that is not good because of things I have learned since I put them in. So, I pulled them out, inspected everything and set them to .055". It seemed to pull smoother through the Rpms but nothing serious. I have since tried the counting the clicks method and have tested 4, 5 and 6 clicks (including the soft first click). It seems to have done the best with the 6 clicks but not a real change in performance.
AFC:
I don't even have enough time to list all the different things i have tried here. I will go over a couple of major ones. But I will say that it drives cleanly now unless you are bogging it or doing a hard acceleration run and even then it is a little cloud down low and then clean from 2000 rpms up.
I have check the AFC foot with shop air and it is set for full fuel @ 35 psi, I have taken out the plate, take off the foot, and check the afc diaphragm for leaks. Everything looks pretty solid. I have spent hours looking at my spare p- pump and my brother p-pump trying to make sure I am getting full rack travel.
Timing:
I thought that I slipped timing but it remained at 21* till I talked to Hamilton and they said to try dropping it to 17* which I did. It pick a little low end torque but not much and the top end was a little less. I had the pump benched and re-set it to 20*.
Egts:
Once I fixed the waste gate issue, the egts have been 1250-1300 max at WOT. Daily driving I see about 5-900* and the freeway is about 850* at 75MPH
Boost leaks/ inter cooler/ piping:
There have been some issues with boost leaks. The intercooler had a good sized blow out which we fixed to only a pin hole leak. The turbo outlet had a v band clamping issue that we addressed but other than that we haven't found anything. Even those didn't really change the feel but they decreased smoke
Benched the pump:
2 weeks ago I had the pump benched because I thought maybe that could be some of the issue. The specialist said it came in at 300cc for both torque fuel and full load. There was 200cc of no where fuel. This was all on the 181 DV. In the treads I ahve read lots of people have said that 181's are pleant and can make 600hp. I really don't feel like this is a 600hp truck yet.
I also asked the Bosch shop to just look and see if there was anything wrong with any of the governor linkages. He didnt say there was any issues but I am not sure that they really cared. The are not a performance shop and made me sign a waiver saying I knew I was going to blow up my motor. http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/images/smilies/turbo1.gif
I know there is way more we have checked but that will give you all a good idea. I am not just asking for help and I haven't tried to do anything! I have spent 100+ searching, looking and trying every combination of search terms for some guidance.
Here is what I am currently planning on doing: Putting in some delivery valves and putting on a set of compounds to help low end spool
-I think delivery valves may be next: I am looking at .024's Ducky's 7mm DV or their COMP cuts. I know Big Blue ( I have read all of the junker drag tread and loved it) likes the .024's but I think i might want more fuel since I seem to be so low on cc's.
-Compounds and Ditch the Industrial exhaust manifold that is on it now:
I also have a set of Compounds setting in the shop.
It is a bd piping kit with a race covered s480 and I have three options for my small turbo. I really would like to use my he351 with the bored out WG because they are easy to work on, get parts for and rebuild. I have rebuilt atleast 6 of them. I like them and ( this will contradict what others have seen) they seem to handle abuse better than the s300s because of the thrust plate. Just my opinion from rebuild a few of both turbos. I really love Big Blue's set up and it seems to have great power and good street spool
But i could use my spare Super b or even the Super B Special that is on the truck now. And with all of this get a 3 piece middle drop manifold.
Here are some of my questions:
1. Could my 181 be holding me back so much that I am seeing lack luster performance?
2. Is my CR style rear drop exhaust killing my spool and thereby killing my get up an go?
3. What delivery valve would be best suited for the soon to be installed compounds? Or should I stick with the humble 181?
Moral of my very long story is ... I need some good old fashion Cummins wisdom before my wife kills me for spending all of my time tinker on this truck!
Thanks for reading and All Thoughts Are Very Appreciated!
This is 2 years worth of story so you might need a more comfortable chair. It is a story of tuning, tuning, and lots of time spent testing theories.
My truck runs well but not great. And that is what is killing me! I can best describe it as lack luster. It will start to put you in the seat but that is as crazy as it gets really. It will make 5psi by 1700rpm, 10psi by 2100+- and 45 ish 2700 where it will stay through that gear shift. Grab the next gear and it is the same thing all over. I have tuned and tuned and tuned over the last 9 months but nothing really changes. There is some low ( When I had the pump benched the guy said the "no where fuel was @ 200cc) smoke, some mid range smoke as the turbo is lighting and the top end is clean as a whistle. Sound pretty close to right on except there is never that feeling where it really get after it.
It consistently get about 17 MPG but is not anything like what most of you guys describe from similar set ups. I know this isn't an apples to apples comparison but is no where as fast as a 09 6.7 3500 4x4 6 speed that only had a 5" inch exhaust, S&B air filter and a h&s tuner. --
Currently it will not do a rolling burn out from any speed. I thought that might be because of the DRW so i took off 2 tires and it still does not have enough oomph to break the tires loose. Now is an excellent time to point out that I am not one who wants to go sliding around like an idiot but i use it as a measurement of power. A stock single 235/80/17 on back ought to be easy to break loose since it is not super wide. Again, I am not saying I want to do burn outs every time I accelerate like a teenager but I am trying to give you all something to measure against. This is my fun/ dd truck and I have taken about 2 years to research and build it so that everything would be done right. I turn the wrench myself and this was not the first Cummins I have built but I did spend a lot of time talking to other people who know way more than I will ever know. I am the first one who will say that I could have made a mistake somewhere!
Help me figure this out!
Here is the low down on how the motor is built:
BODY is a 2005 Dodge Ram 3500 4x4, 6 speed with SB dual disc ceramic, Valair upgraded Hydro
Guages:
- Isspro Pyrometer/boost/ fuel
Block:
-95 12 valve block bored .020"
- ARP 4203 studs
- ARP 14mm main studs
- ARP Rod bolts
- Balanced crank and rods
- Total rebuild +- 7000 miles on the motor now
Head:
-95 magnafluxed, decked, new valve seats set to .055"
-Mild at home port and polish ( my 3rd Port and polished cummins head and a lot of time studying), I feel like this is the best one I have done yet.
-Port matched exhaust side and exhaust manifold
-#60 springs
Cam:
- Hamilton 188/220 broken in with Hamilton's zinc additive
- Degreed
Pump:
-180hp purchased new from Freedom as New old stock.
-4k gks
-Moded the washers, afc foot and the fuel plate to a #100.
-Benched @ 300cc with all mods and the stock 181's
- Timed to 21 degrees ( I have also tried 17*)
Injectors:
- Currently running 5x.016 DAP 145*
- Have also run 5x.014 DAP 145* injectors
---- Both injector make the same PSI and only deference driving is the 5x16 have more smoke down low and spool the turbo about 50-100 rpm sooner. Both sets of injectors are totally clean up @ WOT Highest psi to date was 47psi for a second with the 5x14's
Lift pump:
- stock lift pump being fed by a walbro 392 with a inline Donaldson 2 micron filter. I generally see 50 psi
Turbo:
-Super B Special (64/71/14) port mached to exhaust manifold
Exhaust Manifold:
- Ported Industrial 12 valve exhaust manifold to keep the factory Common rail turbo location
Exhaust: 5" turbo back
So here is everything I have done:
Waist Gate:
First got the truck running and it smoked all the time. So I tuned and tuned- nothing cured the clouds of black smoke when i got on it. It would make 43 psi but there what way too much smoke. i finally found out my waist gate was set too low and was pushing open at 10 psi. I raised that to 50 psi using shop air.
Cylinder Head:
It was still smokey and hazed all the time. I pulled the head and found out the Chinese cylinder head I had bought brand new was warped from the factory ( We bought 2 at the same time and the other was still sitting in the shop so we check it) and I had a blown head gasket. I had my machine shop deck my factory head, put in new seats, and recess them to match Hamilton's specs (.055"). I thought that might help the power because the chinese head was way too far down (like .089 valve face depth) Got it back and ported it. Put on the truck and it was much happier but it really didn't make much of a power difference.
I bought another .010" over gasket but I am not currently seeing any signs of a bad HG.
Injectors:
At the same time as I did the head work I sent the 5x16 sac back to DAP to have them checked. The piston looked like the injectors were spraying out of the bowl @ 21* of timing. The checked out fine but Because of a mix up I when several months running my brothers brand new 5x14 sac injectors. I now have my 5x16's back and there is no real change. Just more low end fuel and a little more mid fuel up to about 2000rpm.
Governor springs:
I first put them in using the caliper method and set them to the factory settings. I wrote the .00" on the box the gsks came in and also counted the clicks. I later checked the box and saw my old writing that said .047 on one spring and .071 on the other. I knew that is not good because of things I have learned since I put them in. So, I pulled them out, inspected everything and set them to .055". It seemed to pull smoother through the Rpms but nothing serious. I have since tried the counting the clicks method and have tested 4, 5 and 6 clicks (including the soft first click). It seems to have done the best with the 6 clicks but not a real change in performance.
AFC:
I don't even have enough time to list all the different things i have tried here. I will go over a couple of major ones. But I will say that it drives cleanly now unless you are bogging it or doing a hard acceleration run and even then it is a little cloud down low and then clean from 2000 rpms up.
I have check the AFC foot with shop air and it is set for full fuel @ 35 psi, I have taken out the plate, take off the foot, and check the afc diaphragm for leaks. Everything looks pretty solid. I have spent hours looking at my spare p- pump and my brother p-pump trying to make sure I am getting full rack travel.
Timing:
I thought that I slipped timing but it remained at 21* till I talked to Hamilton and they said to try dropping it to 17* which I did. It pick a little low end torque but not much and the top end was a little less. I had the pump benched and re-set it to 20*.
Egts:
Once I fixed the waste gate issue, the egts have been 1250-1300 max at WOT. Daily driving I see about 5-900* and the freeway is about 850* at 75MPH
Boost leaks/ inter cooler/ piping:
There have been some issues with boost leaks. The intercooler had a good sized blow out which we fixed to only a pin hole leak. The turbo outlet had a v band clamping issue that we addressed but other than that we haven't found anything. Even those didn't really change the feel but they decreased smoke
Benched the pump:
2 weeks ago I had the pump benched because I thought maybe that could be some of the issue. The specialist said it came in at 300cc for both torque fuel and full load. There was 200cc of no where fuel. This was all on the 181 DV. In the treads I ahve read lots of people have said that 181's are pleant and can make 600hp. I really don't feel like this is a 600hp truck yet.
I also asked the Bosch shop to just look and see if there was anything wrong with any of the governor linkages. He didnt say there was any issues but I am not sure that they really cared. The are not a performance shop and made me sign a waiver saying I knew I was going to blow up my motor. http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/images/smilies/turbo1.gif
I know there is way more we have checked but that will give you all a good idea. I am not just asking for help and I haven't tried to do anything! I have spent 100+ searching, looking and trying every combination of search terms for some guidance.
Here is what I am currently planning on doing: Putting in some delivery valves and putting on a set of compounds to help low end spool
-I think delivery valves may be next: I am looking at .024's Ducky's 7mm DV or their COMP cuts. I know Big Blue ( I have read all of the junker drag tread and loved it) likes the .024's but I think i might want more fuel since I seem to be so low on cc's.
-Compounds and Ditch the Industrial exhaust manifold that is on it now:
I also have a set of Compounds setting in the shop.
It is a bd piping kit with a race covered s480 and I have three options for my small turbo. I really would like to use my he351 with the bored out WG because they are easy to work on, get parts for and rebuild. I have rebuilt atleast 6 of them. I like them and ( this will contradict what others have seen) they seem to handle abuse better than the s300s because of the thrust plate. Just my opinion from rebuild a few of both turbos. I really love Big Blue's set up and it seems to have great power and good street spool
But i could use my spare Super b or even the Super B Special that is on the truck now. And with all of this get a 3 piece middle drop manifold.
Here are some of my questions:
1. Could my 181 be holding me back so much that I am seeing lack luster performance?
2. Is my CR style rear drop exhaust killing my spool and thereby killing my get up an go?
3. What delivery valve would be best suited for the soon to be installed compounds? Or should I stick with the humble 181?
Moral of my very long story is ... I need some good old fashion Cummins wisdom before my wife kills me for spending all of my time tinker on this truck!
Thanks for reading and All Thoughts Are Very Appreciated!
Last edited:
--By sounds find, do you mean that is the performance that I should be expecting from the 64 and my work? Does what I have describe sound like it fits the hp/ performance profile? I am going to be stepping up to the he351/ s480 compound with the month and I hope that helps things some.
