Injection System Question

[Gambler]

So, I've started looking at the newer Fords and I hear a lot about the injection pump/injectors being problematic and also Ford blames it on bad fuel...I'm a Cummins guy, but looking to expand my horizons...

Thanks
Jody

[wise guy]

fuel system issues are common. the 6.7 scorpion basically the same pump as 11+ 6.6 duramax engines fuel contamination WILL result in failure when the pump comes apart metal contamination will find its way into the injectors requiring fuel system replacement. the 6.7 is b20 compliant and actually gets just a touch better economy on it but...... The standards of bio diesel are a joke and most bio can cause all kinds of system failures, water in fuel will destroy the pump gas will destroy the pump, my personal favorite def in diesel will ruin the pump, in a nutshell the fuel system is sensitive if you have your own farm tank with 2 year old fuel and inch of water in the bottom 6.7 is not for you if you drive around on E and put 5 bucks in at a time at the cheapest station you can find it will leave you walking. On the other hand if you replace your filters use good quality fuel from a high volume station they will go hundreds of thousands of trouble free miles.

[Gambler]

Wise guy, thank you for the response. I have also looked at the 6.4's, like a 2010 4door dually...Ford definitely has the comfort features...not necessarily looking to Hot Rod it, but exhaust, intake and a tuner and any deletes..haven't dug into things yet. I can Hot Rod my 12v...lol

[Gambler]

So, is the cp4 a bad pump?

[wise guy]

Originally Posted by Gambler

So, is the cp4 a bad pump?

kinda not really bad just much more delicate than the cp3. What we could of got away with with a cp3 will destroy the newer pumps

[Scooter's Roofing]

I think you're getting somewhat of a chicken little scenario here...

any common rail engine is going to be susceptible to bad fuel

The only time we've seen 6.7 fuel system issues is when the tank is filled with REALLY bad fuel. Otherwise, the failure rate is low. Lower than the K16's on the 6.4's (which are also pretty low failure rate)

I wouldn't let the fuel system dictate my truck purchase as they're all about on par with eachother these days

[Gambler]

Good to know! So another question, I was at a New Years Eve party last night and started talking w/ a Ford diesel tech. Now mind you, he did seem pretty green and I inquired about the 6.4, which the only problems I know of are heating issues because of poor radiator design...he bashed the s..t out of the 6.4 and started telling me how great the 6.0 is. I'm trying to go off a stock to stock comparison, not getting into pulling the cab performance stuff. I know what a 6.0 needs to make it a Beast, Read Diesel Power Mag once! Lol
Moving on, so would a 6.4 be a better choice than a 6.7 ? Leaning to the 6.4 because of price comparison to 6.7 and have been warned about the bad fuel/inj pumps, but it appears to be More of a fuel issue rather than poor mechanical design.

[wise guy]

Originally Posted by Gambler

Good to know! So another question, I was at a New Years Eve party last night and started talking w/ a Ford diesel tech. Now mind you, he did seem pretty green and I inquired about the 6.4, which the only problems I know of are heating issues because of poor radiator design...he bashed the s..t out of the 6.4 and started telling me how great the 6.0 is. I'm trying to go off a stock to stock comparison, not getting into pulling the cab performance stuff. I know what a 6.0 needs to make it a Beast, Read Diesel Power Mag once! Lol
Moving on, so would a 6.4 be a better choice than a 6.7 ? Leaning to the 6.4 because of price comparison to 6.7 and have been warned about the bad fuel/inj pumps, but it appears to be More of a fuel issue rather than poor mechanical design.

OH GOD NO!!!!!!!! i make a living fixing diesel trucks all brands ford chevy dodge. Disclaimer" i bleed blue " That said 6.4 can and will make power much easier than any other ford. BUT!!!!!! 6.4 if you even consider building 6.4 buy junk one start from scratch 6.4 engines will run with relatively small problems like broken pistons. a performance rebuild on 6.4 can run over 20k if you do it yourself. Short list of 6.4 problems ford pistons crack the valve guides wear out in 60,000 miles lifters fail ruin the cam rockers wear out in 30,000 miles still uses same 10 head bolt design as 6.0 so hg are always an issue 2mm bigger but still fail, oil cooler plug up just like 6.0, timing covers cavitate leak coolant into oil ruining the engine, fuel injection systems really are not that bad fuel contamination results in 90+% of pump and injector failures. Not to mention hp turbo failures. ford only used the engine for 3 years for reason. FORD COULDN'T REPLACE IT FAST ENOUGH. Removing the emissions makes huge difference in 6.4 reliability but if it has more than 2000 hours the valve train is already on its way out. a proper rebuild can fix most of the 6.4 issues but costs big$$$$$ 6.4 can easily go 150,000 miles without single failure but when they go down very common to see 15k+ repair. 6.4 are cheap for a reason.

[Scooter's Roofing]

dealer technicians see a disproportionate amount of failures... they also see a disproportionate number of trucks owned by non-enthusiasts.

the 6.4 does not have a poor radiator design. Certainly not from a cooling standpoint. So I'm not sure where you got that. the 6.7 radiator is essentially the same design.

techs like the 6.0 because they're easy to work on (compared to a 6.4 or even 6.7), they don't implode as often as a 6.4, and they're far cheaper.

The biggest problem with the 6.4 in stock form is extended oil drain intervals and/or excessive regen cycles causing poor oil quality that eats up rocker arms at best and lifters at worst. Same rockers and lifters as the 6.0's, but regens can murder oil quality and that's when those items can cause problems. (A shelled lifter in a 6.0 or 6.4 = complete engine overhaul!)

in non-stock form, the biggest problem on the 6.4's is cracking a piston. Comes from a lot of timing and heat. it doesn't take much. bone stock trucks can crack pistons (though I wonder how truly "bone stock" they actually are)

one injector nozzle hole aligns with the lip of the piston bowl with advanced timing and will start to crack the piston. once it FINALLY breaks through across the piston, that one nozzle hole acts like a blow-torch on the cylinder wall.

IF the truck is shut down as SOON as the piston cracks, it can be overhauled fairly inexpensively. International has a revised piston bowl design that prevents this issue. It was introduced after Ford quit with the 6.4. It is only available in standard bore.

The aftermarket offers "de-lipped" pistons.

One of the big problems with the 6.4 is almost everything is a cab-off procedure. Yes, there are guys who do turbos cab-on... There are even masochists who have done heads cab-on. But book procedure for turbos, oil cooler, injection pump? all cab-off procedures.

Whereas the 6.7 those are all cab on...

The 6.4 comes out of the front of the truck fine, but because the cab was designed to come off, it's easier to just pull the cab if you have the means.

6.7 cab comes off just as easy.

The 6.7 is a tank. It rarely has catastrophic failures. And if it does, it's all Ford, so you don't pay the double-OEM markup of International made parts. And it's a current engine that's under warranty, so parts are cheap. Wholesale shortblock is $3500 from Ford. I've bought complete good running pull-out engines for $2000-3000. You can expect to pay double that for a 6.4, yet... I wouldn't trust a pull-out 6.4. We only buy Ford remans because they warranty labor as well as parts. But they're getting close to $6k for a reman short block. Reman. not new like the 6.7's

But... with all that said? I know this is an unpopular sentiment, but I think the 6.4 is the better overall package. The trucks are less technologically advanced, and I see fewer little glitchy electronics issues. That's not to say that the 6.7's have major issues. Compared to a Dodge's electronics issues? It's essentially a non-issue.

The 6.4 is a far stronger engine. The rods are way stronger. The block has a bed-plate. The 5R transmission is superior to the 6R in my opinion. It's painfully easy to overhaul, and a fresh factory-spec 5R behind a 6.4 will hold up to 600rwhp for a surprisingly long time unless you're just beating the tar out of it. And I can get a bench job done on a 5R for next to nothing. I can drop the truck off and have a fresh trans for under $2k.

You're going to be doubling that or more for a 6R that will hold the same power, and the 6R's seem to have a mind of their own at times. Not often, but FAR more often than a 5R in a 6.4!

So you have a stronger engine and a stronger/simpler transmission. (people will argue with me on the 5R vs. 6R thing, but there are plenty who agree with me, and they're right, just like me ) AND, you're paying $10-15k less for the truck...

Now... if you crack a piston and torch a cylinder wall, you're going to spend every penny of that $10-15k to bring the truck back on line with good pistons, etc.

But you're still going to have a truck that will hand the average 6.7 its own ass in a drag race or a towing race

With that said? The wise decision is to just bite the bullet and buy the nicest 6.7 you can afford and enjoy the more comfortable interior (the 6.4 interior is NO SLOUCH) and the lack of concern over catastrophic failures

I apologize for the novel, but I'm currently embroiled in the same shopping dilemmas... I've owned four 6.4's. I currently own one (my reg cab) and I'm looking for another crew cab. I've been looking for the right deal on a 6.7 for SIX MONTHS (I want an oxford white long bed w/ black interior... hen's teeth) and I've just recently started shopping for the right deal on another 6.4.

I'll say this. If you aren't prepared to work on a 6.4 AND/OR you don't already have a SOLID mechanic that you know and TRUST to work on a 6.4? Spend all the money and just get a 6.7!

[Scooter's Roofing]

Perfect example of doom and gloom from someone who makes their living working on abused trucks...

valve guides at 60k? rockers at 30k?

Yet I've taken multiple 6.4's from 100k to 200k+ with zero issues... 4000+hrs on each truck. Big race tunes on all of them.

But, I buy pampered 1-owner trucks and don't run extended oil change intervals. I've never even had a radiator leak on one of my trucks.

People who work on them all the time will tell you they're junk.

Which is the reason I've started shopping for one again. They're so cheap compared to a 6.7! I can't invest much in a 6.0. I LOVE 6.0's. Best bang for the buck in a used diesel truck BY FAR. But they steal them left and right where I'm at, so I only buy them if they're a screaming deal and don't need much work.

Originally Posted by wise guy

OH GOD NO!!!!!!!! i make a living fixing diesel trucks all brands ford chevy dodge. Disclaimer" i bleed blue " That said 6.4 can and will make power much easier than any other ford. BUT!!!!!! 6.4 if you even consider building 6.4 buy junk one start from scratch 6.4 engines will run with relatively small problems like broken pistons. a performance rebuild on 6.4 can run over 20k if you do it yourself. Short list of 6.4 problems ford pistons crack the valve guides wear out in 60,000 miles lifters fail ruin the cam rockers wear out in 30,000 miles still uses same 10 head bolt design as 6.0 so hg are always an issue 2mm bigger but still fail, oil cooler plug up just like 6.0, timing covers cavitate leak coolant into oil ruining the engine, fuel injection systems really are not that bad fuel contamination results in 90+% of pump and injector failures. Not to mention hp turbo failures. ford only used the engine for 3 years for reason. FORD COULDN'T REPLACE IT FAST ENOUGH. Removing the emissions makes huge difference in 6.4 reliability but if it has more than 2000 hours the valve train is already on its way out. a proper rebuild can fix most of the 6.4 issues but costs big$$$$$ 6.4 can easily go 150,000 miles without single failure but when they go down very common to see 15k+ repair. 6.4 are cheap for a reason.

[Scooter's Roofing]

I'll also say this... if you're planning on leaving the truck stock, get the 6.7!!!!

If you're planning on listening to the exhaust, the 6.4 sings the sweet tune of the International firing order.

the 6.7 sounds like garbage! reliable garbage, but garbage none-the-less

[wise guy]

Originally Posted by Scooter's Roofing

Perfect example of doom and gloom from someone who makes their living working on abused trucks...

valve guides at 60k? rockers at 30k?

Yet I've taken multiple 6.4's from 100k to 200k+ with zero issues... 4000+hrs on each truck. Big race tunes on all of them.

But, I buy pampered 1-owner trucks and don't run extended oil change intervals. I've never even had a radiator leak on one of my trucks.

People who work on them all the time will tell you they're junk.

Which is the reason I've started shopping for one again. They're so cheap compared to a 6.7! I can't invest much in a 6.0. I LOVE 6.0's. Best bang for the buck in a used diesel truck BY FAR. But they steal them left and right where I'm at, so I only buy them if they're a screaming deal and don't need much work.

I do make a living fixing them I bought my cabin up north, new polaris rzr and 35' toyhauler this year fixing them. most expensive tickets are 6.4 trucks. So yes i say doom and gloom 6 leakers are still bread and butter but 6.0 will last 5-6000 hours 6.4 very common to see multiple bad guides well under 2000 hrs fuel in oil causes lot of problems good ol 6.4 dpf's but every truck came with one! I bought more 6.4 engines than all other brands and models combined last year. I say they are junk simply because they are! sucks when someone has to refinance there house to fix there truck. I'm glad you had luck with them most owners do but when they go down they go down hard.. and probably 10x more often than 6.7. I only bought one 6.7 ford engine in 2015 and it was run out of oil. Put new long block and turbo in it still under 13k out the door And it could of been rebuilt but when i can buy new not reman long block for 7800 its not worth fixing. Probably 3 out of 4 6.4 trucks i did last year needed over 10k in work. sorry but i cant recommend any one buying a 6.4 truck unless i prepare them for dumping 15 k in it. now you buy a blown up ccsb lariat for 12k its worth doing pull it fully rebuild and run it from day one with no emissions. Yes it would be good truck. buy used one for 25-30k with 125k on it run it for year and motor craps out dump another 15-20 k in it that would suck unfortunately i see that all too often..

[Scooter's Roofing]

I've seen all of that too, my friend... lots of paid off trucks refinanced in order to pay for an engine job

I've bought a couple of them in need of a motor.

I've had good luck, but I've also had good luck with every vehicle I've ever owned. I contend that at some point "luck" has to correlate with knowledge and care.

The one I love is the misnomer that 6.4's blow head gaskets left and right. The same could be said about the 6.0's actually... a guy goes and pays top dollar for a low mile stock 6.4 and puts a tuner on it and blows the gaskets.

But I can buy one with 130k, put a race tune on it, and have zero problems up until I sell it with 230k.

Could it be that it was traded in because the previous owner beat the tar out of it and patched it back to stock to dump it off as a trade in?

same thing used to happen with 6.0's

It's amazing how many headaches never even become headaches by doing all the diligence BEFORE the purchase. I've never blown a head gasket or hurt a transmission in a 6.0 or 6.4. But I crawl straight up their ass nit-picking the entire truck. If I see tattle-tales that it's been deleted before, I'm out... if I see excessive idle hours on the cluster, I'm out...

My generic advise is to just buy a 6.7. I've been trying to follow it for 6 months... But I'm having a hard time coughing up $40k+ for a 100-120k mile 2011-2012... Tomorrow I'm going to look at a 150k mile Job 2 KR long bed that's bone stock. Lady ended up with it in a divorce and doesn't want it. They're asking rough trade-in. Clear title in hand. Seats look clean, truck looks clean, etc.

If the engine hours look decent and it passes my proctological exam, decent deltas, blowby, etc. I'm going to try to steal it for right at $10k below retail.

I'll hope to put 50-70k miles at just shy of 600rwhp on it prior to any major issue, but even if I have to put $10-15k under the hood, I'll have WAY more truck than I can get in a 6.7 for the same money. And I'll actually have real leather seats, unlike the 6.7 KR's

But, if this truck is like 95% of the trucks I look at, I won't buy it... I hate being picky sometimes. It seems like for all the time I spend hunting/shopping, I could just spend it fixing whatever breaks! But I'm just too cheap and too proud to let an inanimate object get the better of me!

[oldestof11]

While Scooter has a good take on it, the CP4 is a known weakness in the CR TDis.


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[Scooter's Roofing]

CP4 is a known weakness in CR TDI's, Duramaxes, and 6.7 Fords...

I'd say outside the P7100 or VE, the injection pump is a "known weakness" in every diesel out there... because when/if they crater, the novice buyer gets a $10-20k repair bill to replace every single component that the fuel touches, and the OEM won't warranty it because of "fuel contamination"

which drives people to the internet to tell the world how crappy the pump on their first diesel vehicle is!! which makes it a very well "known problem"

all the while, thousands upon thousands of every car/truck with known problems run up and down the roads for hundreds of thousands of miles with nary a problem

no way on earth I'd let a CP4 stop me from buying a 6.7 when I can buy a complete sub 100k running engine from turbo to pan with fuel system for $4k or less... I realize it's a $12k ticket at the Ford house for a fuel system replacement, but the brand new take-off wheels and tires I bought off of Craigslist for $1200 will cost you $5-6k if you go straight to Ford.

[Gambler]

Very good read and thanks for sharing. When you speak of the injection pumps and stuff, Dodge had a bad rap about the vp-44 pumps...the pumps weren't necessarily the issue as w/ a poor lift pump design.

[Gambler]

Now, here's one, so Ford stopped w/ the 6.4 for a reason you say and you've definitely backed it up. If Ford was using International, why not go w/ a straight 6 design like they used in some industrial designs? I'm not out to knock them and maybe Ford is just stuck on reinventing the wheel. Chrysler Corp got w/ Cummins and they did exactly that. An industrial engine that had been tried and true and developed a way to install in a manufactured pick up.

[Scooter's Roofing]

actually... it was a VP44 problem...

[Scooter's Roofing]

Originally Posted by Gambler

Now, here's one, so Ford stopped w/ the 6.4 for a reason you say and you've definitely backed it up. If Ford was using International, why not go w/ a straight 6 design like they used in some industrial designs? I'm not out to knock them and maybe Ford is just stuck on reinventing the wheel. Chrysler Corp got w/ Cummins and they did exactly that. An industrial engine that had been tried and true and developed a way to install in a manufactured pick up.

packaging concerns. an I6 is LONG. the 6.4 was a stop-gap. Ford started designing the 6.7 when the 6.0 was still current.

I never got the V8 diesel thing until I drove a tuned 6.4. a 500rwhp 6.4 is lightyears ahead of any 500hp Cummins with a Dodge transmission behind it.

The 6.4 was actually one hell of a stop-gap, but it's a bit of a bastard child in the grand scheme of things.

Ford's 6.7 is/will be a legacy engine. It's the reason a 2010 Lariat with 130k miles on it is $22-27k and a 2011 Lariat with 130k is $30-40k

There isn't a vast difference between the trucks, otherwise. It's more refined and comfortable. But, again, the 6.4 is a really nice/comfortable truck. Better than any dodge... The 6.4 has some things going for it that the 6.7 doesn't. But the 6.7 engine is the paradigm changer

[will24]

There isn't a vast difference between the trucks, otherwise. It's more refined and comfortable. But, again, the 6.4 is a really nice/comfortable truck. Better than any dodge... The 6.4 has some things going for it that the 6.7 doesn't. But the 6.7 engine is the paradigm changer

100% agreed. We have a customer with a 2013 lariat, bone stock, 180k miles. He's done nothing but brakes and tires and the truck drives like its brand new!



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