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Old 09-27-2016, 01:28 PM   #661
tall boy

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiffi View Post
I think pre-cat temp was something like 600 degrees, max pressure was reached around max hp rpm, at max torque it was even lower.

What I was thinking is that do these engines have bigger injectors to make 450 hp at that low pressure ? Injector part number is different from other xpi engines. If railpressure is for example doubled, will fueling also double ?

Very potential engine, at 1100 rpm at max stock boost smoke limited torque value is about 3800 Nm, so there's lot of extra air if those calculations are right.
Can not comment on things you read only know when fuel pressure goes up in the fuel system the holes get smaller. The engine is worming things up and thatís all I can say and there are two parameters indicating this is the case and it sometimes takes some manipulation to get things working. Bit the same way as getting a 750Hp Volvo pulling like mad unloaded as it knows itís unloaded it limit things.

Model we set is 5100Nm at 1200Rpm 2.8Bar boost pressure.
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Old 09-27-2016, 03:21 PM   #662
TDIfreak

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiffi View Post
I think pre-cat temp was something like 600 degrees, max pressure was reached around max hp rpm, at max torque it was even lower.

What I was thinking is that do these engines have bigger injectors to make 450 hp at that low pressure ? Injector part number is different from other xpi engines. If railpressure is for example doubled, will fueling also double ?

Very potential engine, at 1100 rpm at max stock boost smoke limited torque value is about 3800 Nm, so there's lot of extra air if those calculations are right.
I got R410 and R490 engine files but no R450 yet.

Those two engines have same injectors and I assume R410 is SCR only. It has very low rail pressure, at full load it will start from under 1000 bar and goes to 1500-1600 bar at over 2000 rpm only.

In contrast, R490 seems to be with EGR+SCR (if I understand the maps correctly) and there rail pressure is between 1300...2300 bar at full load depending on rpms. So it's over 500 bar difference at full load and on part load it's even more, about 1000 bar difference between R410 and R490.

R580 V8 which also has the same injectors has got the highest rail pressure, it goes over 2000 bar already at about 1430 rpm and full 2400 bar from 1600 rpm onwards to the end.

There are of course several maps for rail pressure but these values are on three biggest maps that have the highest values on each sw.

Interesting differences for sure. Maybe I should take a look at SOI values also? Leiffi do you know if R410 and 490 have same high compression as 450?
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Old 09-28-2016, 01:37 AM   #663
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIfreak View Post
I got R410 and R490 engine files but no R450 yet.

Those two engines have same injectors and I assume R410 is SCR only. It has very low rail pressure, at full load it will start from under 1000 bar and goes to 1500-1600 bar at over 2000 rpm only.

In contrast, R490 seems to be with EGR+SCR (if I understand the maps correctly) and there rail pressure is between 1300...2300 bar at full load depending on rpms. So it's over 500 bar difference at full load and on part load it's even more, about 1000 bar difference between R410 and R490.

R580 V8 which also has the same injectors has got the highest rail pressure, it goes over 2000 bar already at about 1430 rpm and full 2400 bar from 1600 rpm onwards to the end.

There are of course several maps for rail pressure but these values are on three biggest maps that have the highest values on each sw.

Interesting differences for sure. Maybe I should take a look at SOI values also? Leiffi do you know if R410 and 490 have same high compression as 450?
490 has 18:1 cr, 410 is same as 450.Main SOI is about 2-3 degrees at max torque at about 1100-1200 rpm, end of injection is something like 25-30 degrees ATDC.
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Old 09-28-2016, 03:24 AM   #664
tall boy

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiffi View Post
490 has 18:1 cr, 410 is same as 450.Main SOI is about 2-3 degrees at max torque at about 1100-1200 rpm, end of injection is something like 25-30 degrees ATDC.
I got some data from a EGR+SCR XPI engine telling me 2200Bar from around 1400Rpm but the thing is you need to load up the engine to get to this load mapping as fast acceleration will give only 1500Bar trying to maintain temp in the system as I also have this data that confirms this.

Hmm that way to retarded injection for making power. If we set 1400 rail pressure end of injection will be 20 ATDC max and if we set fuel pressure on target we end up 11 ATDC so knowing the OE NON EGR engine runs about half power of what we make and assuming the injector is more than half the size we use you need a bit more than only g/stroke to work out end of injection also depend on the amount of injections used that is.

As for looking on what parts to use it can only be done by looking a the engine serial number verifying it has the same piston and injector used. We put great effort in making a low CR piston that work well with the injectors we used. On the race truck we use from 2014 onwards we still have 12.7l EGR+SCR Euro 5 pistons and 730Hp V8 injectors and they make a lot more smoke than what we use today on the rally engines. These V8 XPI injectors are about 38% smaller on fuel volume on what we use today so itís not like slam in a bigger injector and a miracle will happen. It will tell you in a smelly way that I will need a total different set-up on parameters and the biggest chance is fuel rail pressure and these engine likes to have it short and fast on fuel injection. We know form truck racing the piston dome makes all the difference on making power with less smoke. A good example is the Mercedes from Norbert Kiss making a load of progress as for getting the engine parts needed.
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Old 09-28-2016, 03:34 PM   #665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tall boy View Post
I got some data from a EGR+SCR XPI engine telling me 2200Bar from around 1400Rpm but the thing is you need to load up the engine to get to this load mapping as fast acceleration will give only 1500Bar trying to maintain temp in the system as I also have this data that confirms this.

Hmm that way to retarded injection for making power. If we set 1400 rail pressure end of injection will be 20 ATDC max and if we set fuel pressure on target we end up 11 ATDC so knowing the OE NON EGR engine runs about half power of what we make and assuming the injector is more than half the size we use you need a bit more than only g/stroke to work out end of injection also depend on the amount of injections used that is.

As for looking on what parts to use it can only be done by looking a the engine serial number verifying it has the same piston and injector used. We put great effort in making a low CR piston that work well with the injectors we used. On the race truck we use from 2014 onwards we still have 12.7l EGR+SCR Euro 5 pistons and 730Hp V8 injectors and they make a lot more smoke than what we use today on the rally engines. These V8 XPI injectors are about 38% smaller on fuel volume on what we use today so itís not like slam in a bigger injector and a miracle will happen. It will tell you in a smelly way that I will need a total different set-up on parameters and the biggest chance is fuel rail pressure and these engine likes to have it short and fast on fuel injection. We know form truck racing the piston dome makes all the difference on making power with less smoke. A good example is the Mercedes from Norbert Kiss making a load of progress as for getting the engine parts needed.
I just wonder how these engines can still be so fuel efficient ? Scania knows something we dont.

When is big holes and high pressure causing too strong fuel penetration which makes fuel air mixing worse ?
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Old 09-29-2016, 06:54 AM   #666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiffi View Post
I just wonder how these engines can still be so fuel efficient ? Scania knows something we dont.

When is big holes and high pressure causing too strong fuel penetration which makes fuel air mixing worse ?
It got a lot to do with toothpaste and extruder honing or things with a similar result. Main thing is to get turbulence out of the hi pressure system and this already starts in the hi pressure lines all the way down to the nozzle.

Itís not only Scania, the whole industry whent bigger on injector flow from Euro 4 to Euro 5 and 6. Best example I have is the 2.8L CR from Jeep thatís made 250Hp on the old type injector. Later on we did a 2.5L CR same VM engine with latest model injectors making over 320Hp on the same ECU settings and same goes for the 3L CR Toyota engines but again a big parts has to do with the piston dome in relation to the nozzle and the correct fuel pressure plays a big role as well so end of comp temp in relation to boost pressure and MAT and very little start of injection advance so a very short delay before things will combust.
On the very hi flow injectors even a pilot injection dos not make a chance any more indicating that the fuel will generally combust with very low combustion noise and no white smoke or smell up to a 15CR. Also it has been mentioned but cannot confirm this that the swirl is taken out or down in order not to disturb the fuel spay out of the nozzle so yes low velocity fuel injection and good combustion can go hand in hand this way I think.

On the non EGR Scania Euro6 version adblue can play a big parts as well as NOX is less of a concern coming out of the engine therefore less control is needed on maintaining low combustion pressure and increasing fuel economy that is still part of the Euro6 target plan the OE has to apply to.
All we do on these CR engines go in fast and hard same as on a diesel pro stock engine and let the fuel regulate the combustion and inline pressure monitoring shows that peak pressure is less but pressure is maintained for a longer time therefore making more power. I think what makes the difference on start of combustion that we get small droplets of fuel and are able to keep them separated after exiting the nozzle spreading them over a large area but we must be able to ignite them before we hit the relative cold piston dome and if the bowl shape forces the air fuel mixture upward things will only ignite when boost goes up a lot and before getting white smoke and poor engine performance.
On de Scania PDE engines we discover we had some oxygen left indication that the combustion took place lower than expected and to solve this we took a CR nozzle with two rows of 4 by 4 so in total 8 holes so the cone shape spay pattern had a bigger cone angle but as we had a offset on the nozzle holes spay pattern kept clear of each other.

I also forgot to mention the needle shape plays a big role as well. Some have up to 5 different slobes depening on the needle lift/fuel pressure chaging the spay pattern/droplet size/spay velocity.

So in all things improved a lot on hardware over the years but production became extremely more difficult to maintain tolerances needed.
Fun part is if your able to delete the practical filter or bypass it same as all the after treatment stuff on hard and software big chance is fuel economy and power will improve a lot over previous fuel systems but changing injectors sometimes means changing the piston and cyl head as well as tolerances needed are getting smaller so less messing about with engine parts I think.

Example of a Euro 5 needle and 8 hole offset nozzle.

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Old 10-09-2016, 04:18 AM   #667
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We have a European champion among our customers. Team Hahn Racing with there MAN race truck.

Begin this year this team bay one of our diesel ECU systems and run their engine with there own ECU parameters coming up with a very strong engine set-up making more low end power even running a smaller intake retricktor as in 2015 there was a 65mm hole and for 2016 a 63mm retricktor hole but to compensate min weight of the truck was reduced by 300Kg to level things out on track speed.

To get a better understanding of most MAN race trucks. Most engines are on a lease base and there is a commercial plan behind this as someone want to make money on this so things are restricted and therefore limited in performance so Jochen Hahn did a very good job handling the competition from the freight liner form Adam Lacko with the CAT C13 engine.


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Old 12-26-2016, 01:49 PM   #668
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Second of January 2017 the big test for the two Scania Rally trucks will start.

First two days will be only to 280 meter above sea level but day 3 will be fun going up to 4895 above sea level so man and machine will have a big challenge coming as oxygen will be low and concentration levels will drop and turbochargers will be pushed to the limit.
In total 5 days will be above 3800 meter altitude, but than again Le Dakar must be one of the most challenging Rallies on the globe.

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Old 12-30-2016, 06:01 AM   #669
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Let the fun begin. Second of January it all starts for real. Le Dakar Rally 2017.

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Old 01-02-2017, 03:33 AM   #670
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Let the rally game begin.


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Old 01-07-2017, 07:21 AM   #671
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No need to explain I think the Dakar rally the off road rally of all rallyís and it got everything you can think of dust heat over 50 degrees C water and mud sand a thin as baking powder and altitude up to 5Km above sea level.

Thinks are going well again after 5 stages with the Scania Torpedo rally trucks currently holing 10 place overall for the Dakar Speed truck with only 1.05 hours behind the leader and the second truck is fighting it self back after overheated engine due to a V belt coming of that runs the coolant pump as well losing 3 hours on the stage to fix a problem with some melted plastic vent lines on the cylinder head but on the last stage they went from a 29e place back to 22e place overall.

Top 17 so far are factory supported rally trucks so we are doing extreme well without any factory support so we are talking about amateur teams here running the Scania trucks and yes we/they run some test but before the Dakar but not a single rally stage was done so extremely happy.

Iím sitting @ home doing the technical support for the engines when needed and I know from the years before the teams are now running in survival mode as they run very long days with maybe 2 to 4 hours sleep for the service crew so no communication when there is no need to but looking @ the stage results the engine/turbo set-up dos very well on hi altitude above 3200 meters and more so more than happy with the TiAl/S472SX-E BorgWaner combination on these 12.7L CR engines making 1130Hp from 30PSI boost onwards also depending on EGT being within limits of 800 degrees C that is.

Cooling. As long as you turn the main power supply on to the cooling fans like what happen on one of the rally trucks the cooling can handle over 50 degrees C under full load so a job well done to together with ERN that build all coolers and heat exchangers for the trucks.

Did we have no problems @ all? Yes we did on the leading truck there was a problem with a air leak in the fuel system or we get air vapour due to hi fuel temp and hi ambient temp as it went a away when the temp drop down a bit more so I think we need a swirl tank in the future eliminating air keeping some fuel pressure on the main feed line to the low pressure fuelpump of the CR XPI fuel system.

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Old 02-11-2017, 10:10 AM   #672
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Have been a while but we done a load of work.

We got the new build 18.4L V8 engine running with the commonrail XPI fuel system. This engine got 2L more displacement compared to the old 16.4L that we run last year with PDE injector or pump injectors.

We had to deal with a load of gremlins but what would you expect building a commonrail XPI fuel system twice as big as original so we took time the test a load of stuff eliminating things like injector failure and low compression ratio due to wrong cam timing or valve clearance and so on but all turn out to be OK. We had low quality and to retarded injection due to not having a solid hydraulic link in the injector due to still having air in the fuel system and if you go big with the fuel system fuel flow becomes low as well so you need to give it more time to bleed out so we started with a very grumpy prostock like engine, loads of white smoke ending up with a very aggressive sounding non smoking engine with the injection timing and fuel pressure I wanted to run as you can see in the YouTube movie I made.

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Old 02-19-2017, 10:40 AM   #673
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Trailer of Semi Truck pulling event coming May.
We still have to swap the 15.6L for the 16.4L V8 engine on de bonneted Truck with a different set of cams and injectors.

Also construction on the 18.4L commonrail engine is well on itís way hoping to have the charge air system complete soon so we can boost up those two S500SX turbochargers have a feel if this engine want to make some power.

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Old 02-22-2017, 09:22 AM   #674
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Ready for some serious testing the modular ECU systems. This loom converts from the modular ECU plugs to the plug used on the 1280DI ECU. Hope to get the modular ECU in soon.

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Still a work in development but this modular ECU/controller has potential. On the more complex project we sometimes run out of in/outputs, well not any more for now as we can ad I/O according to our needs adding more controller cards.

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Old 03-09-2017, 05:32 AM   #675
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Some picture of the new 18.4L V8 commonrail engine.

Still we have a load of work to do but got the engine up to 2900Rpm for the fist time setting up the RPM governor and ALS system.
Engine runs very smooth revs up like hell and did not smoke @ all ado I put in a lot of fuel off boost so really curious on what is commonrail concept brings us

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Old 03-13-2017, 11:11 AM   #676
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First pulling event in 2017 first win with the Nr:3 truck.

Still a load of work to do as the Nr:3 get the old engine from the Nr:2 thatís 800cc bigger so 16.4L and has new cams and injectors so hope to get some power gain there.
The Nr:2 truck with the new build 18.4L commonrail engine still needs some protected 4mm steel plating around the turbochargers before we can enter a pulling event.

Loosbroek 2017 MVJ3 truckpuller run1 - YouTube
Loosbroek 2017 MVJ3 truckpuller Finale run - YouTube
Loosbroek 2017 MVJ3 truckpuller Super Finale run 1 place - YouTube
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Old 03-29-2017, 01:56 PM   #677
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A load of motor sport fun with Semi trucks. Last weekend I was over on the Brands Hatch circuit truck racing.

Challenge was to get the Bint race truck with a Detroit 60 series engine fit to perform regarding the ECU setting needed to make more power and less smoke as last year running a modified standard ECU. Think it went well as he now behind Makinen with the Black Sisu truck and second in the championship B division. So I’m happy.

A and B division needs to be explained a bit. A division is manly factory produced or factory supported race trucks and in this class we run the Scania race truck as well as it’s to fast for the B division so you could say the Scania race team is semi professional running a still standard engine. . The Brands Hatch 2017 practice YouTube clearly shows the difference in speed to the B division trucks. As you can see power sliding these 5500Kg trucks no problem keeping the RPM down not to lose traction so it pulls from 1200Rpm almost a flat power curve to 2600Rpm but in order to get max torque @ low end you need some time to build boost and use the turn to do so and shift up from 9t to 10t gear coming out of a slow turn. The rest of the track only done in 10t gear.


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The pulling team also tested the Torpedo Scania with the 16.4L engine now modified with Euro5 modified cams and bigger injectors and it looks very promising. Hard to say but for now but we pulled the fastest time of the test day outrunning last years second place winner in the championship with a 18L Volvo engine called the hulk. One of the green white trucks as the other one is called Baby Hulk and look almost identical.

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Old 03-30-2017, 07:56 AM   #678
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So now Euro5 cams are better ?
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Old 03-30-2017, 12:44 PM   #679
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No Leiffi thatís not what my post says. Euro5 modified cams and bigger injectors but regarding the Euro5 OE timing none of that is left so sorry no chance getting this out of a road going truck. Euro3 cams are better on that part. We call them Euro5 cams as they have more plunger travel and use the Euro5 PD plunger body as a base for our injector but this is where it all stops but still PD is on itís last legs as we now running injectors able of delivering 33% more fuel than what Scania has to offer on XPI surpassing the speed and volume of injection of any PD we have used.

Started up this race truck today running the bigger XPI injector and taken 25% of the fuel injected not to make it into a truckpuller making massive smoke.

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Old 04-02-2017, 02:15 AM   #680
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Yes, XPI is nice, but can you ever beat Sigma pumps with your modern technology ?

I dont know why but no one gets any power out of Euro3 cams, only smoke and high EGT.
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