Advertisement |
|
|
|
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above.
You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.
To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
|
02-22-2017, 10:16 AM
|
#1
|
Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 780
|
Unacceptable Idle Haze
Hey guys, I have been trying to check down a grey/blue idle haze I have had ever since I built the truck. I started doing mods before I ever even started the engine so it is hard to tell what the cause might be, but it definitely smells like raw fuel.
When I first started the truck with the old oem injectors it had a haze, I figured it was the old, lazy, dirty injectors. I really didn't care at the time. I racked the barrels, and turned the collar thinner on the stock delivery valves. Big difference in power, never noticed a difference in haze. I then installed some used 5x12 injectors. More power, same haze at idle. The last few months I have been running some 5x18 injectors. Same haze at idle, lots of power; but now that I am working on making the truck more comfortable, the haze is getting quite annoying.
Recently I tore the injectors down, gave them a good cleaning in an ultrasonic cleaner, reassembled, and tested pop pressure. They all seem to atomize great at 4200psi. Reinstalled them, no difference in haze. So I thought maybe it was the DVs that I machined, I picked up a good used set of 191s. Installed, no difference in haze; quite a bit more fuel when on the throttle though! I think I may have finally out fueled my compounds.
Here are the specs on the injectors.
5x.018 12V Injectors
Scheid serial # 423510
Built in 2014
Lightning Billet nozzles
Filters removed
Dual feed bodies
4200-4250 pop pressures
142* spray pattern
.008 machined off the head. Running the thinnest copper washer. Timing is at about 23* according to the lift chart, but even when I was at 18* it didn't seem to make a difference. Looking back at some blown head gasket pictures, it appears that I am spraying good in the bowl...
Are the Scheid injectors just a real dirty injector? What else could be causing the haze? The injection pump?
Thanks for any help,
Kris
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
|
|
|
02-22-2017, 03:42 PM
|
#2
|
Name: cetanefreek
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Idaho
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 716
|
Stock compression ratio?
|
|
|
02-22-2017, 03:57 PM
|
#3
|
Name: 95cummins5.9
Title: Old man ***** gossiper
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: U.S.A
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 4,720
|
191's will haze at idle.
|
|
|
02-22-2017, 04:08 PM
|
#4
|
Name: 9712valve
Title: Turtle Racer
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: CT
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,879
|
I'd ditch the 191's for .022's or .024's can't remember which are better
__________________
18 f350 rclb 6.7 stock
10 f350 ccsb 6.4 deleted s467 fmw with race cover. Sold
05 f250 rclb 6.0 looney tuned.
94 2500 rclb 12v stock for now 1000hp build in progress
|
|
|
02-22-2017, 05:00 PM
|
#5
|
Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 780
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by cetanefreek
Stock compression ratio?
|
As far as I know. I did a refresh on the motor thinking I was burning oil via leaky valve seals, etc (before I realized it was definitely raw diesel smell). Never checked compression, but man; this thing starts on the first or second revolution. I never did an actual compression check but I'm guessing it must be good.... It will even start when its 30 degrees out without it plugged in. I have to give it a little pedal and help keep the idle high for about 30 seconds. I read of a lot of people having issues with starting when timed over 20*, I don't know why I don't see that issue...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 95cummins5.9
191's will haze at idle.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9712valve
I'd ditch the 191's for .022's or .024's can't remember which are better
|
It hazed with the stock delivery valves as well as after I modified them on the CNC lathe to ressemble an .024.
191s obviously weren't my first choice, but they were cheap and a good quick way to test that it wasn't an issue with the DVs I turned myself. They definitely light the turbos a little quicker and put out a lot more smoke, more AFC tuning will be in my future if I decide to keep them this race season.
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
Last edited by Redrider2911; 02-22-2017 at 05:10 PM.
|
|
|
02-22-2017, 05:16 PM
|
#6
|
Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 780
|
My boss has a p pump sitting in a slow project. I thought about taking the 181s out of that and putting them in mine or take my modded 131s and put them in the 181 holders.
Only pictures that got a good shot of the spray pattern on the pistons while doing the head gasket.
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
|
|
|
02-23-2017, 03:21 PM
|
#7
|
Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 780
|
A quick video of what I am dealing with.
Cummins Idle haze - YouTube
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
|
|
|
02-23-2017, 05:52 PM
|
#8
|
Name: 95cummins5.9
Title: Old man ***** gossiper
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: U.S.A
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 4,720
|
Chitty injectors.
|
|
|
02-23-2017, 06:29 PM
|
#9
|
Name: jasonc
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2009
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 4,412
|
23 deg timing and delivery valves are gonna haze to some extent. How is it after a 30 min drive and pulling into the store hot. In that vid how warm was it.
|
|
|
02-23-2017, 06:36 PM
|
#10
|
Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 780
|
Sorry. only put it in the YouTube description. Was idling for like 10 minutes from a 45* ambient start. It clears up a little if I REALLY hammer on it, some of the blue goes away but still a definite unacceptable grey haze. Let it sit there and idle for about 2 minutes and it goes back to bad blue.
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
|
|
|
02-23-2017, 07:13 PM
|
#11
|
Name: admcummin
Title: Diesel Enthusiast
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2011
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 222
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrider2911
Sorry. only put it in the YouTube description. Was idling for like 10 minutes from a 45* ambient start. It clears up a little if I REALLY hammer on it, some of the blue goes away but still a definite unacceptable grey haze. Let it sit there and idle for about 2 minutes and it goes back to bad blue.
|
I would highly recommend having a "professional" set your pump up. I have a 215 from seth with 5x.014s 181 dvs at 20* currently. Very clean running set up all the way around. Will haze at idle if truck is cold. I've ran this fueling with 62/80 compounds and can tell you it delivers enough top end fuel to use up every bit of air your s475 can deliver.
|
|
|
02-23-2017, 07:48 PM
|
#12
|
Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 780
|
Just did a few real hot pulls. Engine temp is at about 190* now and started recording as soon as I came to a stop and got out of the cab. About 40* ambient right now. To give as many details as possible, my Air/water intercooler water pump went out so right now the intercooler is really heat soaked too...
This video is only like a minute long. I don't know if you can really see he haze in the video. There is still a decent grey haze (all though not as bad as the the cold idle video). You will notice the haze slowly getting worse through out the video. If I recorded for another 3 minutes, you would see it return all the way exactly how the cold video looked.
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
|
|
|
02-23-2017, 07:51 PM
|
#13
|
Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 780
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by admcummin
I would highly recommend having a "professional" set your pump up. I have a 215 from seth with 5x.014s 181 dvs at 20* currently. Very clean running set up all the way around. Will haze at idle if truck is cold. I've ran this fueling with 62/80 compounds and can tell you it delivers enough top end fuel to use up every bit of air your s475 can deliver.
|
:thumbsup: thanks for the recommendation. I do plan on doing this some time this year. I might have to contact Seth soon if it means helping me get rid of this haze. What is he charging these days to rebuild and max a pump?
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
|
|
|
02-23-2017, 09:07 PM
|
#14
|
Name: Tate
Title: What?
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Airdrie, Alberta
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 3,419
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrider2911
What is he charging these days to rebuild and max a pump?
|
Max/ Balance Info - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together
__________________
'98 3500 2wd, 24v, 5 spd, p-pumped
'98 2500 4wd, 12v, 6 spd, VP'd
'02 VW Jetta, 5 spd.
My p-pump conversion pics
|
|
|
02-25-2017, 06:33 AM
|
#15
|
Name: Drothgeb
Title: Almost Fast-N-Loud
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Maryland
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 820
|
Raising the pop pressure may help. I'm running 5x20s at 300bar with 024s and don't have any haze at idle once it's warmed up.
You might want to check the tips too. I've had a couple over the years that didn't have great looking orifices, that hazed at idle.
__________________
95 RCLB 4WD
10.66 sec, 128.93mph
I'm not a Cummins expert, but I did sleep at Holiday Inn Express
|
|
|
02-25-2017, 09:15 AM
|
#16
|
Name: J-Pipes
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ohio
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 4,575
|
Watching this, my VP 24V does the same thing. Injectors has been my thought.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
__________________
2000 Dodge ext cab short bed, 6spd.
|
|
|
02-25-2017, 09:31 AM
|
#17
|
Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 780
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drothgeb
Raising the pop pressure may help. I'm running 5x20s at 300bar with 024s and don't have any haze at idle once it's warmed up.
|
I might have to try that next time I pull them. I was talking to Will about buying some of their injectors too. He was saying by the looks of it, I'm spraying too much right on the edge of the bowl. I might try to really retard the timing to get it in the bowl, or put the thickest injector washer I have to even spray on top of the piston.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drothgeb
You might want to check the tips too. I've had a couple over the years that didn't have great looking orifices, that hazed at idle.
|
How hard are these nozzles? When I received them last summer, it almost looked like they were wire wheeled.
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
|
|
|
02-25-2017, 10:06 AM
|
#18
|
Name: Rich dzl
Title: 12v guru
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Mar 2011
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 741
|
If don't want idle haze go back to stock timing and injectors . That's not bad at all . You sure the turbo is not letting oil thru . What injector washers you running ? Incomplete burn at idle causes haze . To much timing to low of coolant temp , nozzles large or spray outside of bowl . If you going be picky about haze on a 12v you gotta check everything. Run the thin washers on injectors . Make sure spray angles on injectors are to oem specs this is all factors .a lot injectors are made for the more common marine style pistons not stock pistons .
Last edited by Rich dzl; 02-25-2017 at 10:11 AM.
|
|
|
02-25-2017, 10:10 AM
|
#19
|
Name: Smokem
Title: Turbler
Status: Not Here
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Iowa
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 5,565
|
Raising the opening pressure 10BAR isn't going to eliminate idle haze, most often it is due to the cone angle or the nozzle's depth in relation to the piston bowl. I've worked on several sets of the Scheid nozzles, they are not billet.
|
|
|
02-25-2017, 10:27 AM
|
#20
|
Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 780
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich dzl
If don't want idle haze go back to stock timing and injectors . That's not bad at all . You sure the turbo is not letting oil thru . What injector washers you running ? Incomplete burn at idle causes haze . To much timing to low of coolant temp , nozzles large or spray outside of bowl . If you going be picky about haze on a 12v you gotta check everything. Run the thin washers on injectors . Make sure spray angles on injectors are to oem specs this is all factors .a lot injectors are made for the more common marine style pistons not stock pistons .
|
Did you watch the first video? I understand there is give and take, but I am willIng to work with it so I can get a clean idle. If it's different brand injectors, maybe some 5x18s without all the lift and pintle mods. Or some 5x16 or even 5x14. I know I should be able to out fuel the compound setup I have with some 5x14s and a pump maxed by Seth, I'm just hoping to keep the injection event shorter with the bigger injector.
I'm running the thinnest washers offered and spray angle is 142*. I wonder if I might try to turn down the injector nut a little to seat the injector further in the piston.
I verified that the turbos are not the cause by starting the engine without the turbos hooked to the exhaust manifold. Haze was just the same, I could actually see raw diesel misting out.
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
Last edited by Redrider2911; 02-25-2017 at 10:28 AM.
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:14 PM.
|