Advertisement
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Home Who's Online Today's Posts HP Calculator CompD Gift Shop Mark Forums Read
Go Back   Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together > Tech Area-Ford > Ford Competition and Performance
Register Members List Timeslips EFI Live Library Invite Your Friends FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Ford Competition and Performance General Ford Competition and Performance Discussion

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-24-2022, 05:57 AM   #1
Fordy McFord

Name: Fordy McFord
Title: Rookie
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: EU
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 21
A 1.6 tdci mini compound build [an attempt]

Hello everyone, newcomer here (please don't ban me for my low displacement shenanigans), on a quest for fun odd stuff so if anyone can give me a few pointers on my micro diesel compound lump idea i would greatly appreciate it!
-
Currently i'm trying to measure thrice before cutting, for the introduction part, the engine in question is a TDCI 1.6 16v turbo diesel, more info about it can be found here [Ford DLD engine - Wikipedia ; the exact name judging by the year and type would be DV6-TED4 and comes with a vnt turbo [GT1544v] and has a whopping 110HP with 240Nm of torque.
-
Many projects on this engine consist of just slapping a big single turbo and going well beyond 200hp+ range and into double of the aforementioned stock torque, which is neat. My weird self decided it would be fun to do it in a compound setup with just shy over 200hp rather than going overboard getting ALL the power, its just my preference of having a wide powerband and not sacrificing the lower end for the top end (of which there isn't much since 5k rpm is the limit).
-
My initial idea was to combine a gtd1244vz to have a unrealistic earlier spool (since gt1544v starts the fun at 2k rpm), with a GT2056 for the low pressure turbo. The other idea was using the stock 1544v as is but modify the vnt for earlier spool with also 2056 as the low pressure turbo. Looking at the compressor maps the combinations are doable but im unsure of how to scale their whole compounding thing, need to do some math on that part to figure out how much air i need for a bigger bang just to be sure.
-
It's just a fun idea im working on so any tip would help, im just sitting on a lot of spare parts like these semi old/modern turbos and engines so i thought it would be interesting to try a mini compound turbo setup. Everyone is welcome to spitball/eyeball the engineering of this one
 
Old 12-24-2022, 01:44 PM   #2
56cummins

Name: 56cummins
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Mar 2014
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 733
The gt2056 is rated 140-260hp, sounds like a good match to your goal. Maybe go bigger. On the secondary, I wouldn't go smaller than stock. It's all personal preference, build it how you want it. Sounds like a fun project, get after it.
__________________
95 cummins
 
Old 12-24-2022, 02:43 PM   #3
Fordy McFord

Name: Fordy McFord
Title: Rookie
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: EU
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 21
Sure thing, please do elaborate why not go lower on high pressure turbo.
The 1244vz is used by many as a single turbo upgrade to this engine and with the right injectors it can reach as far as 180hp as is, which is kinda neat and you dont sacrifice low end for the top end since its a turbo with variable geometry vanes. I would go for it purely for the vgt part to achieve max early easy spool and maybe pair it with that 2056 somewhere in the middle, now the issue im facing is what on earth would be the end absolute pressure on intake to achieve above 200hp. By my estimate it should be about 3 bar at most but i digress.
 
Old 12-24-2022, 05:13 PM   #4
Cowboys4Christ
 
Cowboys4Christ's Avatar

Name: Cowboys4Christ
Title: Boost is energy held back
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MT
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 612
When does your current stock turbo light?

How much boost are you wanting each stage to make?
__________________
08, F350, CCLB, 4X4, 6.4, 332k+ miles.
97, F350, 7.3L, CCLB, 4X4, zf6 manual.
 
Old 12-24-2022, 05:25 PM   #5
mhuggler

Name: mhuggler
Title: One piece at a time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Uno, Pa.
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,517
Boost pressure isn't what makes power, it's volume. I'm just saying that so you don't get too hung up on boost pressure numbers.
__________________
2002 2500 4x4 ETH/DEE-F1 Mach 5's/62/65/12/Smarty/ATS Ex.manifold/AFE intake/TST Comp./.020 marine gasket/o-ringed/ARP studs/5"stacks/Airdog 150/Isspro guages/Southbend 3600 DD/3.54 gears/leveling kit/Bilstein 5100frt,5150rr/37" BFG A/T's on 18" Eagle 114's/Borgeson SS/DSS
 
Old 12-24-2022, 05:47 PM   #6
Fordy McFord

Name: Fordy McFord
Title: Rookie
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: EU
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 21
The 1544v starts doing something after hitting 2k rpm but drops dead after 3.5-4k, typical econobox setup of riding the golden middle ground of everything.

As for what im wanting or expecting for each stage, thats a bit hard to answer. Ideally i would like for the HP turbo to start as low as possible and carry up to the middle of the rev range as best as possible possible where the LP turbo could take over in a healthy way without jerking the car in the whole transition of power.

Judging by the 1544v map (i cant seem to find 1244vz proper map which is frustrating me to death) it can produce the right amount of air flow of 6lb/min which is good for 130ish hp at about 1.5 pressure ratio, and the gt2056 can deliver 11lb/min of air resulting in about 230ish hp at 1.4 pressure ratio.

Sooo my math may be wrong but do correct me just in case, if the LP turbo inlet is at atmospheric pressure of 14psi (deducting some psi due to elevation and not rounding it up to 15), at top power producing moment it should be like, LP turbo gets 14psi and sends 20ish psi to HP turbo which compresses it then to 30psi and sends it to the poor poor engine to try and make 230ish hp give or take.

Not sure of interstage intercooling but for now im set on a bigger fmic.
Not sure of exhaust piping like, should i keep them turbos as close together and as close to the exhaust manifold, oil feed is kinda confusing but splitting the feed is acceptable as both turbos would be doing minimal loads but that leads the drain, i believe it should drain separately, correct me if im wrong there.
As for the staged expectations i think you can deduce the scaling from the top most ideal power figure, i hope i wrote things clearly, im not really an expert on anything other than theories for now.
 
Old 12-24-2022, 05:52 PM   #7
Fordy McFord

Name: Fordy McFord
Title: Rookie
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: EU
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhuggler View Post
Boost pressure isn't what makes power, it's volume. I'm just saying that so you don't get too hung up on boost pressure numbers.
Yeah its incredibly tricky to not mix things up, i used to think pressure is king but after reading a thing or two here and there i stood corrected, volume is king, pressure can be baby like as long as you do it right.
 
Old 12-24-2022, 07:20 PM   #8
jasonc

Name: jasonc
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2009
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 4,385
I'd start using the stock charger your used to, and experiment with different low pressure chargers.
 
Old 12-25-2022, 04:46 AM   #9
Fordy McFord

Name: Fordy McFord
Title: Rookie
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: EU
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonc View Post
I'd start using the stock charger your used to, and experiment with different low pressure chargers.
Well, it is a good point since i can do away with any fabrication on the exhaust header but at the same time the 1244 is a bolt on as well, just newer gen turbo. The only problem is i cant find any reliable info on it being so new so im left with the good ol' oldies like 1544 and 2056 combo.
 
Old 12-26-2022, 09:22 AM   #10
Cowboys4Christ
 
Cowboys4Christ's Avatar

Name: Cowboys4Christ
Title: Boost is energy held back
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MT
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys4Christ View Post
When does your current stock turbo light?

How much boost are you wanting each stage to make?
True, but boost does change how much air a engine is able to pump. Generally the more boost, the more air a engine can pump. I believe it's also good to know desired pressure to help figure out how much air the engine can move.

But, in order for that to work one needs to know the pumping efficiency of the engine. Weather it 70% 75% 80% and so on.

Boost is also a sign of restriction, but boost can help with restriction as well.
__________________
08, F350, CCLB, 4X4, 6.4, 332k+ miles.
97, F350, 7.3L, CCLB, 4X4, zf6 manual.
 
Old 12-26-2022, 10:48 AM   #11
biggy238
 
biggy238's Avatar

Name: biggy238
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Here
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Just North of Wrong
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 10,738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys4Christ View Post
True, but boost does change how much air a engine is able to pump. Generally the more boost, the more air a engine can pump. I believe it's also good to know desired pressure to help figure out how much air the engine can move.



But, in order for that to work one needs to know the pumping efficiency of the engine. Weather it 70% 75% 80% and so on.



Boost is also a sign of restriction, but boost can help with restriction as well.
This is an explanation from the opposite end of the same tube. Now look at it from the perspective of flow. In an imaginary system you can pump fluids from one place to another with no friction. In the real world, every surface and bend in direction or diameter change the moving mass encounters is a restriction, and the total of these restrictions are what we measure as pressure.
For a pumping system to maintain the same flow through a restriction, the velocity must increase. Also, the greater the pressure differential from one side of the restriction to the other, the higher the velocity. This action is what we call boost. We increase the flow into the system, knowing we have resistance to the flow, in hopes of hitting our target inlet flow at the consumer.

Essentially, you can make 10 lbs boost humming through a kazoo, or you can make 10lbs boost pushing air into a mine shaft. The flow is vastly different.



Sent from my motorola one 5G using Tapatalk
__________________
Check out @bdmaximusworx

05.5 Campanella White TDi Jetta 5spd 45.5MPG
-Little Sexy
'10 Silver F250 CCLB 4X4 6.4L cummins Swapped
Insta @trash.panda250
 
Old 12-26-2022, 11:04 AM   #12
mhuggler

Name: mhuggler
Title: One piece at a time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Uno, Pa.
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggy238 View Post
Essentially, you can make 10 lbs boost humming through a kazoo, or you can make 10lbs boost pushing air into a mine shaft. The flow is vastly different.
Right here. This is what I was trying to point out. Boost is nothing but resistance to flow. Itís nice to have a standard to use as a reference point, but thatís all itís good for.
__________________
2002 2500 4x4 ETH/DEE-F1 Mach 5's/62/65/12/Smarty/ATS Ex.manifold/AFE intake/TST Comp./.020 marine gasket/o-ringed/ARP studs/5"stacks/Airdog 150/Isspro guages/Southbend 3600 DD/3.54 gears/leveling kit/Bilstein 5100frt,5150rr/37" BFG A/T's on 18" Eagle 114's/Borgeson SS/DSS
 
Old 12-26-2022, 11:57 AM   #13
Fordy McFord

Name: Fordy McFord
Title: Rookie
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: EU
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 21
Soo, my comment here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordy McFord View Post
The 1544v starts doing something after hitting 2k rpm but drops dead after 3.5-4k, typical econobox setup of riding the golden middle ground of everything.

As for what im wanting or expecting for each stage, thats a bit hard to answer. Ideally i would like for the HP turbo to start as low as possible and carry up to the middle of the rev range as best as possible possible where the LP turbo could take over in a healthy way without jerking the car in the whole transition of power.

Judging by the 1544v map (i cant seem to find 1244vz proper map which is frustrating me to death) it can produce the right amount of air flow of 6lb/min which is good for 130ish hp at about 1.5 pressure ratio, and the gt2056 can deliver 11lb/min of air resulting in about 230ish hp at 1.4 pressure ratio.

Sooo my math may be wrong but do correct me just in case, if the LP turbo inlet is at atmospheric pressure of 14psi (deducting some psi due to elevation and not rounding it up to 15), at top power producing moment it should be like, LP turbo gets 14psi and sends 20ish psi to HP turbo which compresses it then to 30psi and sends it to the poor poor engine to try and make 230ish hp give or take.

Not sure of interstage intercooling but for now im set on a bigger fmic.
Not sure of exhaust piping like, should i keep them turbos as close together and as close to the exhaust manifold, oil feed is kinda confusing but splitting the feed is acceptable as both turbos would be doing minimal loads but that leads the drain, i believe it should drain separately, correct me if im wrong there.
As for the staged expectations i think you can deduce the scaling from the top most ideal power figure, i hope i wrote things clearly, im not really an expert on anything other than theories for now.
with the info of those turbos here:

gt1544v Garrett GT15 Turbocharger Specs

gt2056 Garrett GT20 - GT2056 Turbocharger Specs

given that im talking about this dld-416 engine:
Ford DLD engine - Wikipedia

am i on the right track with my estimate/thinking?
 
Old 12-28-2022, 05:27 PM   #14
Fordy McFord

Name: Fordy McFord
Title: Rookie
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: EU
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 21
I just wanted to add if anyone can get a hold of any detailed info about the garret gtd1244vz turbo i would greatly appreciate the help, i cant seem to find the map nor anything anywhere for some reason, it may be under a different name idk.
 
Old 12-31-2022, 09:54 AM   #15
Fordy McFord

Name: Fordy McFord
Title: Rookie
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: EU
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 21
Just to add this third question to the mix as i don't know much about it, forged pistons and conrods for diesels, are there any aftermarket manufacturers (at least for conrods, pistons may be able to survive a lot)? I got a bore/stroke of 75,0mm/88,3mm.
 
Old 01-01-2023, 11:23 AM   #16
biggy238
 
biggy238's Avatar

Name: biggy238
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Here
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Just North of Wrong
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 10,738
Check out Brian Crower and see if they offer anything useful. I'm not in a place where I can do much digging ATM. Do you know if the rods have common dimensions with anything else?

Sent from my motorola one 5G using Tapatalk
__________________
Check out @bdmaximusworx

05.5 Campanella White TDi Jetta 5spd 45.5MPG
-Little Sexy
'10 Silver F250 CCLB 4X4 6.4L cummins Swapped
Insta @trash.panda250
 
Old 01-01-2023, 11:37 AM   #17
RascalMafia
 
RascalMafia's Avatar

Name: RascalMafia
Title: heyyyyyyy girrrrrrrl
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Middle GA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 5,511
Carillo can probably make some custom rods too.
__________________
'18 Chevy 2500
'14 Cruze Diesel
'04 Lincoln Towncar
'01 F350 7.3 / ZF6


 
Old 01-01-2023, 03:37 PM   #18
Fordy McFord

Name: Fordy McFord
Title: Rookie
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: EU
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 21
Oh these are interesting, many thanks for the info, ill look into these, new years started off with a bang
 
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:35 PM.

 


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2006 - 2024, CompetitionDiesel.com
all information found on this site is property of www.competitiondiesel.com