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Old 03-22-2020, 08:02 PM   #21
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There is also a new option available for L5P ecm unlocking if you are staying emissions compliant. Once unlocked the options of EFI live and EZ Lynk are back on the table.

Prior to this unlocking service the only option was HPTuners unlocked ECM. Which required the use of HPTuners hardware, software, and credits.

So if someone is positive they will stay emissions intact, the new unlock is a viable and more price conscious option.

https://controllerdiagnostics.com/pr...V7nEV7j-FrWhJY
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Old 03-23-2020, 02:15 AM   #22
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I heard Ford is way underrating their 2020 chit. Couple trucks did 470-480 bone stock no tune.
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Old 03-23-2020, 08:13 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawler View Post
There is also a new option available for L5P ecm unlocking if you are staying emissions compliant. Once unlocked the options of EFI live and EZ Lynk are back on the table.

Prior to this unlocking service the only option was HPTuners unlocked ECM. Which required the use of HPTuners hardware, software, and credits.

So if someone is positive they will stay emissions intact, the new unlock is a viable and more price conscious option.

https://controllerdiagnostics.com/pr...V7nEV7j-FrWhJY
Is the ECM able to be read or does a stock file come with the ECM unlock service?
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Old 03-23-2020, 09:16 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by JQmile View Post
I heard Ford is way underrating their 2020 chit. Couple trucks did 470-480 bone stock no tune.
What would be the advantage?

I know Audi did some of that in the past to best BMW in production 1/4 mile and Nurburgring lap times. The idea was to boast that it was just a better car at the same power levels.

I don't see where hiding HP would work to Fords advantage in this though.
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Old 03-23-2020, 03:11 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawler View Post
There is also a new option available for L5P ecm unlocking if you are staying emissions compliant. Once unlocked the options of EFI live and EZ Lynk are back on the table.

Prior to this unlocking service the only option was HPTuners unlocked ECM. Which required the use of HPTuners hardware, software, and credits.

So if someone is positive they will stay emissions intact, the new unlock is a viable and more price conscious option.

https://controllerdiagnostics.com/pr...V7nEV7j-FrWhJY



Cheaper is better for competition. I have thought that the cost to tune one period kept plenty pf folks from trying to see that they can do.
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Old 03-23-2020, 11:23 PM   #26
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If they're doing 900-1000 lb-ft stock trim I doubt they'll be "weak". But I'd imagine guys aren't fueling them extremely hard down low to keep the trans alive
Maybe weak is the wrong term, but all the ones I’ve driven feel like turds down low. Pedal just feels lazy unless it’s 2000-2200ish or above.
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:07 AM   #27
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What would be the advantage?

I know Audi did some of that in the past to best BMW in production 1/4 mile and Nurburgring lap times. The idea was to boast that it was just a better car at the same power levels.

I don't see where hiding HP would work to Fords advantage in this though.
German manufacturers have been sand bagging power numbers for years. One for the reason you listed, second so they have some wiggle room over the next several years to annually announce increased power numbers for marketing purposes in the horsepower wars without actually making any significant physical changes to their engines. At least this is what a lot of the car community believes. Everyone expects bigger and better each year and one car manufacturer announcing vehicle "x" has the exact same horsepower as last year's model doesn't create much buzz, especially when their competitor announces their vehicle does have more power this new model year.

In the modern day of everything being turbocharged it's pretty easy to add power to an engine incrementally with just slight tuning changes, in most cases. For example, the new 992 generation Porsche 911 Carrera S/4S comes from the factory with a 443hp 3.0L twin-turbo flat-six in stock form. With just an aftermarket ECU tune that engine will do ~570hp to the wheels while remaining emissions compliant. I bet Porsche announces a 10-20hp increase each year for the next 3-5 years without actually making any physical changes to the engine. Porsche doesn't have to do much themselves and the customer is excited at the prospect of a more powerful car each year.

I imagine Ford, currently in the diesel horsepower war with Ram and GM, is sandbagging in a similar way. Ford just retook the crown for most powerful diesel engine in the segment against Ram and GM, who will now try to one up them again, so it makes sense for them not to show their full hand right away so that when Ram or GM announces numbers that beat Ford's slightly Ford can then again quickly announce new power numbers of their own to retake the power crown for marketing purposes without having to make any significant physical changes to their Powerstroke platform. If the 2020 6.7L Powerstroke can do let's say 500-550hp/1,100-1,200hp at the crank while meeting emissions requirements, but they only need to beat GM's 445hp/910lb-ft and Ram's 400hp/1,000lb-ft then it makes sense (to me at least) to start lower and raise the "official" listed power level as needed.

Thoughts?

Interestingly, it seems GM is either content with their L5P Duramax's 445hp/910lb-ft power level or has hit a wall with balancing increased power and continuing to meet current emissions standards. Seems Ram/Cummins has also struggled with increasing the 6.7L's horsepower level and meeting emissions, since they've lagged behind Ford and GM in horsepower for years, or is also content with their platform's current power level. God knows these trucks haven't actually needed more power for a while now.

Also, anyone here driven the new 2020 Fords yet? Curious how guys like the new 10-speed in them.
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Last edited by Smoken Gun; 03-24-2020 at 12:17 AM. Reason: spelling/grammar
 
Old 03-24-2020, 12:17 AM   #28
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Forgot, Calibrated Power Solutions is also heavily into the emissions on tuning/performance game for Cummins, Duramax, Powerstroke, and gas stuff. They've had a 4th gen 6.7L Cummins with an Aurora Vortex 5000 compound kit making 650hp/1,200lb-ft emissions on running around for a while now.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:22 AM   #29
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Josh, My guess is they are keeping big torque off of the tranny down low for a reason.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:52 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoken Gun View Post

I imagine Ford, currently in the diesel horsepower war with Ram and GM, is sandbagging in a similar way. Ford just retook the crown for most powerful diesel engine in the segment against Ram and GM, who will now try to one up them again, so it makes sense for them not to show their full hand right away so that when Ram or GM announces numbers that beat Ford's slightly Ford can then again quickly announce new power numbers of their own to retake the power crown for marketing purposes without having to make any significant physical changes to their Powerstroke platform. If the 2020 6.7L Powerstroke can do let's say 500-550hp/1,100-1,200hp at the crank while meeting emissions requirements, but they only need to beat GM's 445hp/910lb-ft and Ram's 400hp/1,000lb-ft then it makes sense (to me at least) to start lower and raise the "official" listed power level as needed.

Thoughts?

Interestingly, it seems GM is either content with their L5P Duramax's 445hp/910lb-ft power level or has hit a wall with balancing increased power and continuing to meet current emissions standards. Seems Ram/Cummins has also struggled with increasing the 6.7L's horsepower level and meeting emissions, since they've lagged behind Ford and GM in horsepower for years, or is also content with their platform's current power level. God knows these trucks haven't actually needed more power for a while now.
The power wars in the diesel stuff actually relies heavily on the currently available injection systems. Sure you can tune an 07.5 6.7 to make the same power as a brand new 6.7 but parts of the system are being ran out of spec, same goes for the Porsche example. Not that the engine won't survive at those power levels but OEMs come up with those numbers based on a combination of testing and worst case scenario calculations so that the vehicles will survive the warranty period. Sometimes a small bump in power is as simple as recalibrating the ECU but the relevant suppliers still have to re-run tests and calculations to make sure their part of the system meets the longevity requirements. I think some of the inflated numbers people are seeing is due to different testing conditions and dynos that aren't calibrated.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:54 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Smoken Gun View Post
German manufacturers have been sand bagging power numbers for years. One for the reason you listed, second so they have some wiggle room over the next several years to annually announce increased power numbers for marketing purposes in the horsepower wars without actually making any significant physical changes to their engines. At least this is what a lot of the car community believes. Everyone expects bigger and better each year and one car manufacturer announcing vehicle "x" has the exact same horsepower as last year's model doesn't create much buzz, especially when their competitor announces their vehicle does have more power this new model year.

In the modern day of everything being turbocharged it's pretty easy to add power to an engine incrementally with just slight tuning changes, in most cases. For example, the new 992 generation Porsche 911 Carrera S/4S comes from the factory with a 443hp 3.0L twin-turbo flat-six in stock form. With just an aftermarket ECU tune that engine will do ~570hp to the wheels while remaining emissions compliant. I bet Porsche announces a 10-20hp increase each year for the next 3-5 years without actually making any physical changes to the engine. Porsche doesn't have to do much themselves and the customer is excited at the prospect of a more powerful car each year.

I imagine Ford, currently in the diesel horsepower war with Ram and GM, is sandbagging in a similar way. Ford just retook the crown for most powerful diesel engine in the segment against Ram and GM, who will now try to one up them again, so it makes sense for them not to show their full hand right away so that when Ram or GM announces numbers that beat Ford's slightly Ford can then again quickly announce new power numbers of their own to retake the power crown for marketing purposes without having to make any significant physical changes to their Powerstroke platform. If the 2020 6.7L Powerstroke can do let's say 500-550hp/1,100-1,200hp at the crank while meeting emissions requirements, but they only need to beat GM's 445hp/910lb-ft and Ram's 400hp/1,000lb-ft then it makes sense (to me at least) to start lower and raise the "official" listed power level as needed.

Thoughts?

Interestingly, it seems GM is either content with their L5P Duramax's 445hp/910lb-ft power level or has hit a wall with balancing increased power and continuing to meet current emissions standards. Seems Ram/Cummins has also struggled with increasing the 6.7L's horsepower level and meeting emissions, since they've lagged behind Ford and GM in horsepower for years, or is also content with their platform's current power level. God knows these trucks haven't actually needed more power for a while now.

Also, anyone here driven the new 2020 Fords yet? Curious how guys like the new 10-speed in them.
While I totally agree with you and that engine strategy (almost every OEM does it now days), I don't know why people would be dynoing higher HP than the rating. That was my point. What's to be gained by putting out say 500hp/1100ftlbs, but advertising less. I highly doubt sales are based on racing/pulling communities. I'd argue the hp/tq rating, fuel economy, and durability are the main factors.


I appreciate the response though! There are some good points there. And that 992 911 sounds nasty. I'm currently looking for another Audi (2013-2015 S4) because they're in the same boat. For around $3000 in tuning and an underdrive pulley for the supercahrger, they get into the 10's, plus stay emissions compliant and reliable. 330hp up to 530hp. That's some cheap fun!
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:11 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by zachu812 View Post
The power wars in the diesel stuff actually relies heavily on the currently available injection systems. Sure you can tune an 07.5 6.7 to make the same power as a brand new 6.7 but parts of the system are being ran out of spec, same goes for the Porsche example. Not that the engine won't survive at those power levels but OEMs come up with those numbers based on a combination of testing and worst case scenario calculations so that the vehicles will survive the warranty period. Sometimes a small bump in power is as simple as recalibrating the ECU but the relevant suppliers still have to re-run tests and calculations to make sure their part of the system meets the longevity requirements. I think some of the inflated numbers people are seeing is due to different testing conditions and dynos that aren't calibrated.
Wow I completely overlooked that aspect of the equation. Thank you for explaining.

So I take it for OEMs to further push the power envelope they'll (or who supplies their parts will) need to continue to develop increasingly robust fuel injection systems that flow more fuel at higher pressures while also being rugged and reliable enough to withstand that abuse for the duration of the warranty period at an acceptable percentage for the OEMs of all parts involved, while also meeting strict emissions standards? Each new diesel engine iteration's common-rail fuel injection system almost always seem to run at increased psi from the last system which makes more sense to me now, if I have this right.

I also forgot not all dynos are created equal. Anyone run the new 2020 Fords down the 1/4 or 1/8 mile yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CorneliusRox View Post
While I totally agree with you and that engine strategy (almost every OEM does it now days), I don't know why people would be dynoing higher HP than the rating. That was my point. What's to be gained by putting out say 500hp/1100ftlbs, but advertising less. I highly doubt sales are based on racing/pulling communities. I'd argue the hp/tq rating, fuel economy, and durability are the main factors.
Fair point, I suppose if an OEM could make 500hp/1,100lb-ft and warranty it they wouldn't want to diminish the potential marketing splash they could make by sand bagging with a lower official rating. Maybe I'm overthinking/exaggerating the amount of gamesmanship OEMs do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CorneliusRox View Post
I appreciate the response though! There are some good points there. And that 992 911 sounds nasty. I'm currently looking for another Audi (2013-2015 S4) because they're in the same boat. For around $3000 in tuning and an underdrive pulley for the supercahrger, they get into the 10's, plus stay emissions compliant and reliable. 330hp up to 530hp. That's some cheap fun!
No problem, I'm just spitballing here.

What some of the modern gas stuff can do with just a little tuning and/or some forced induction is really impressive. Power goes a lot further too when your in a ~3,000-4,000lb car with a slippery drag coefficient and not an ~8,000lb truck shaped like a brick.
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Old 03-24-2020, 01:37 PM   #33
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Wow I completely overlooked that aspect of the equation. Thank you for explaining.

So I take it for OEMs to further push the power envelope they'll (or who supplies their parts will) need to continue to develop increasingly robust fuel injection systems that flow more fuel at higher pressures while also being rugged and reliable enough to withstand that abuse for the duration of the warranty period at an acceptable percentage for the OEMs of all parts involved, while also meeting strict emissions standards? Each new diesel engine iteration's common-rail fuel injection system almost always seem to run at increased psi from the last system which makes more sense to me now, if I have this right.
Pretty much, from what I've seen OEMs set their goal a few model years out and the suppliers design components to meet that goal with the emissions regulations for that year in mind. To balance both of those it's a game of getting enough fuel in, doing it quickly, and accurately controlling it. That's why they're always changing injector design and injection pressure to try to speed things up, use higher pressure, and keep things robust.

For example, the MY25 and MY26 targets from The Big 3 have been out for the past year and suppliers are working to develop a package that will meet those goals.
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Old 03-24-2020, 07:26 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by CorneliusRox View Post
While I totally agree with you and that engine strategy (almost every OEM does it now days), I don't know why people would be dynoing higher HP than the rating. That was my point. What's to be gained by putting out say 500hp/1100ftlbs, but advertising less. I highly doubt sales are based on racing/pulling communities. I'd argue the hp/tq rating, fuel economy, and durability are the main factors.
I wouldn't underestimate horsepower. I know one old dude with cash that bought a 6.4 when it came out because it spun the tires from a roll and the Chevy diesel didn't. It's a pretty good sales tactic, because you know dudes are going to freeway race their diesels.....or race em with trailers.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:07 PM   #35
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There’s something fun about being able to hold the truck wide open fully loaded and feel it grab gears knowing when it breaks it’s the dealerships problem. Just my opinion. Ran my buddy’s 2020 6.7 Powerstroke vs my 2017 and he walked away from me I was impressed for stock trim. Both leveled on 35’s.
 
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