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Old 10-29-2017, 10:53 PM   #21
crackerman

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I dont see how side loading would be any different than any other engine with this particular stroke/rod ratio
 
Old 10-30-2017, 06:59 AM   #22
mhuggler

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Wow. Everybody can just ignore anything I said earlier. Apparently I'm the only one that stayed awake for more than two days in geometry class. I'm out.
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Old 10-30-2017, 07:41 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by mhuggler View Post
Wow. Everybody can just ignore anything I said earlier. Apparently I'm the only one that stayed awake for more than two days in geometry class. I'm out.
Sorry mhuggler, I think maybe you lost all of us. lol I went back and seen one post about piston skirt side loading from you.

...could you possibly expand a bit on your statement so that we might get a better chance at talking about your concern.

I'll expand just a little. Just about every diesel engine I've taken apart or seen pics of have a piston skirt that is longer than a piston skirt in a gasoline engine.

One reason this VR6 engine is lighter is that it is a gasoline engine. All the diesel engine manufactures are searching for ways to meet future emissions. In doing so, the internal parts are made lighter to reduce rotating/accelerated mass.

I made the statement somewhere, my old '90 model has lived nearly a half a million miles at almost 2x it's advertised HP. Back in the days when all we had was a 460 ford or 454 chevy to get it done, you would be lucky to get 50k miles out of one of those gassers trying to keep up with just the stock 5.9 cummins of '89.

Again, sorta to go along with the "wake up sunshine" post, the diesel community, especially us, are going to have move away from the tractor engine philosophy. Otherwise, the mighty diesel will be gone.
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Last edited by Bodacious; 10-30-2017 at 07:42 AM.
 
Old 10-30-2017, 08:06 AM   #24
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Seen a video of a drug car with one of these engines, turbo'd claiming over 700hp. According to the description, there are two displacements of these, and thst particular car had the smaller displacement crank in the larger bore engine, for a claimed 3L displacement. So, as long as you can keep the power up in the rpm range, it should handle a bit.

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Old 10-30-2017, 08:28 AM   #25
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Rod angle and skirt load look like they do weird chit in this design.
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Old 10-30-2017, 08:49 AM   #26
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Rod angle and skirt load look like they do weird chit in this design.
I'm with ya. It may be the flat deck surface v/s the angle of the cylinder that is screwing with us.

I think my engine, 2013, is 11 degree. The older ones, like in the vid I posted, were 15 degree.

You have to keep the combustion chamber in mind and how the expanding gas acts on the surfaces.

I have that same 2.8 my nephew did the head gasket job on. It is laying in the shop floor with a window in each side of the block. Probably should have taken this one on down as it had been too hot. lol
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Old 10-30-2017, 09:05 AM   #27
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For CAD I prefer solidworks but you could try onshape. It's free if you don't mind your projects being public ($100 a month if you need private files) and it is browser based so you don't need a powerful computer to run it. Might be worth trying out. For any of the CAD programs a lot can be learned off of youtube.
 
Old 10-30-2017, 09:06 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Bodacious View Post
What would you suggest for a fella in my position? What is out there you might approve of?
Fusion 360 does look really good for cheap.
Solidworks works really well with MasterCam and other CNC softwares.
UGNX is hands down the best software I've used and has a TON of capabilities.
CREO (previously called ProE) is used all over and the US Gov typically prefers it. Although, it's what I currently use and I miss UGNX pretty bad...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhuggler View Post
Wow. Everybody can just ignore anything I said earlier. Apparently I'm the only one that stayed awake for more than two days in geometry class. I'm out.
$20 says this chick is 17yo.
jk jk

Diesels typically have a small stroke to rod ratio so they put more force into the crank and less into the sidewall. It's typically a rule of thumb because diesel have much more violent pulses from the power stroke.
That being said, I think you'd be fine with this, it's just not going to last 300k. I'd also highly recommend upgrading your rods and pain bolts. I'm assuming that's a forged crank already, but if not, it'll probably deflect more than you'd think.
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Old 10-30-2017, 01:25 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9724VF350 View Post
Rod angle and skirt load look like they do weird chit in this design.
^^^This is what I was referring to when I mentioned the side load on those pistons. The cylinders are not inline; they're offset and yet still perpendicular to the crankshaft. Obviously, VW and some others found a way to make it work, I just don't know how. Bodacious, sorry I got the wrong impression from you, I've been on here for ten years now and there are way too many douchebags attacking me lately. Just got used to getting defensive.
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Old 10-30-2017, 01:50 PM   #30
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I would use fusion 360. it's free has cad, cam for mills and i believe lathes. It has sheetmetal bending features built in now as well. For single parts or single assemblies it works great.
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Old 10-30-2017, 06:34 PM   #31
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sorry I got the wrong impression from you, I've been on here for ten years now and there are way too many douchebags attacking me lately. Just got used to getting defensive.
Lol, I am with ya. I am learning this "Internet" gives some folks the courage to speak out when they normally wouldn't face to face. I openly admit to being a dumb, redneck, hillbilly, hayseed, etc... and I am my own worst critic. Therefore, I have much to learn.

In light of that last statement, I'm on here to make an attempt to get it done, "Hayseed Style". Lol
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Old 10-30-2017, 06:44 PM   #32
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What are these engines rated at for hp and max rpm now? Never seen this design before.
 
Old 10-30-2017, 08:13 PM   #33
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7k or more.

I saw a vr6 vw golf go over 205mph at the texas mile. With a single borg warner 70+mm turbo. So it was making probably close to 900hp.
 
Old 10-30-2017, 11:25 PM   #34
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7k or more.

I saw a vr6 vw golf go over 205mph at the texas mile. With a single borg warner 70+mm turbo. So it was making probably close to 900hp.
that's good. dang impressive actually!

BUT, what Archie is wanting to accomplish with this same platform is 4x that much HP.

I'm curious how low of TQ archie thinks he can get it down to while burning normal #2 diesel. I understand that's the need/desire to spin it to the moon but actually getting it to and survive is gonna be interesting to see unfold.


So far we're talking about welding up a block. Is this like 3D printing a block with a welder? I laugh but seriously, is that the gist of it?

What about the crank? rods? pistons? valve train? What diesel fuel injection system can handle 10K RPMs? Anything out there anywhere currently doing that?
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:52 PM   #35
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I think the tdi range is close to 8, but 10,is pretty far up there.
 
Old 10-30-2017, 11:57 PM   #36
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I like Fusion 360 but for very complex designs it tends to bug out and slow wayyyyyy down. The idea behind it is that all of the components for assemblies are in the same file along with the CAM. (Hints the Fusion name).

This is awesome for simple parts but anything with a lot of components and sketches tends to eventually slow to a snails pace. Don't let that scare you away as there is a way around that once you get a part where you pretty much want it.
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Old 10-31-2017, 12:42 AM   #37
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Thanks for all the replies on the CAD stuff. I really don't care to pay out some money for good stuff. I'd like to be able to get my file finished, export it to a compd member with the CNC machine, and get my part made.

Is this scenario even possible??

Quote:
BUT, what Archie is wanting to accomplish with this same platform is 4x that much HP.

I'm curious how low of TQ archie thinks he can get it down to while burning normal #2 diesel. I understand that's the need/desire to spin it to the moon but actually getting it to and survive is gonna be interesting to see unfold.


So far we're talking about welding up a block. Is this like 3D printing a block with a welder? I laugh but seriously, is that the gist of it?

What about the crank? rods? pistons? valve train? What diesel fuel injection system can handle 10K RPMs? Anything out there anywhere currently doing that?
Holly crap, 3600HP? lol

I wonder if I could hook up my spool gun to a 3d printer? lol

Seriously, I have 6061T6 aluminum plate here of varying thicknesses. Jump over to the D&J Dreaming Big post and look at the simplicity of the bedplate. Bulkheads and exterior walls.

I will utilize the steel tension sleeves I learned about on the BMW engines to tie the head to the bedplate. I also later learned watching an interview with Jeremy Wagler, Top Fuel engines as well as his DX500 are utilizing tension sleeves.

I haven't made a decision on cylinders. This LSM water block I have is aluminum with steel sleeves. You can look back in the opening for the oil cooler and see the steel sleeve. This means to me the steel sleeve holds all the circumferential force created in the cylinder. Could a fella simply cut a relief in the bed plate to hold the bottom of the cylinder? Other forces come into play, of course, but in the hypothetical world, wouldn't the engine be just as strong resisting all cylinder pressure forces with just the bed plate, steel cylinder sleeves, steel tension sleeves, and head?

All your other questions are good ones and I will get to them as we go along. Bryant Cranks will do my first crank for $8k.

Thanks to the performance aftermarket, rods should not be an issue.

Valves, springs, etc... will be existing available parts. Since this is ground up design, may as well build it to use existing parts.

I guess the biggest question on my mind right now is how big can I actually go with it before, it to, becomes a packaging problem? I could build a 6.7L that would be roughly 2/3rds the weight and 2/3rds the length. Use existing rods and pistons, bearings, etc... and even run an iron head.

Just imagine what todays design engineers could do with that extra space a fella would have up there between the radiator and fan...
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Old 10-31-2017, 07:23 AM   #38
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I was surfing looking for an example of the tension sleeves in the DX500 and Top Fuel engines. No luck yet. lol

Anyhow, I came across this video from 2012:

Donovan Engineering Building Engine Blocks - YouTube

Right about 1:01, look what's on his CAD screen.
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Old 10-31-2017, 08:02 AM   #39
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Interesting reading here for sure. Yall stop cussing AutoCAD. I've been using it since 1995 and it is the one program that never crashes or gives me schidt...but I only do 2D stuff with it. Solidworks is the biggest pile of steaming excrement out there....but I use it everyday. It is easy to learn, very versatile, but it is like a bottle of red wine balanced on a toothpick over momma's white carpet. If you sneeze, the SOB crashes. I'm conditioned to hit save every 2 minutes.
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Old 10-31-2017, 08:17 AM   #40
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I like Fusion 360 but for very complex designs it tends to bug out and slow wayyyyyy down. The idea behind it is that all of the components for assemblies are in the same file along with the CAM. (Hints the Fusion name).

This is awesome for simple parts but anything with a lot of components and sketches tends to eventually slow to a snails pace. Don't let that scare you away as there is a way around that once you get a part where you pretty much want it.
sounds like you need a better computer. Which makes a big difference with any cad program. I have a component chassis tractor with sheetmetal rearend designed.up in fusion 360. every single piece just like in the real world is its own component. The sheetmetal rearend parts, hitch, tubing, machined parts like.planetaries, steering components, wheels, tires, body sheetmetal all in one file. No crashing on my laptop.
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