Smokem
Turbler
DDP3's were just marine 370's with the part number sanded off the nozzle, and the price doubled.
Dynomite Diesel 12v Pilot Injectors
- Thread starter Bersaglieri
- Start date
DDP3's were just marine 370's with the part number sanded off the nozzle, and the price doubled.
J-Pipes
Active member
You need to start a thread about that truck, sounds awesome! The neighbor farm growing up ran nothing but Deutz tractors, they definitely handled more than their share of abuse!
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Red Sleeper
Active member
I'm running a set of DDP "pilot" injectors in my VE 12v. They do burn cleaner once the engine is 1200rpm or higher. And at top end they are cleaner until the VE falls on its face. Then it's all smoke, no go and time to shift.
I bought a set because I had original injectors in the truck that were locally "rebuilt" and smoked worse after the rebuild. This 12v engine blue smokes pretty good at cold start up until the thermostat opens and the piston rings expand a little more. That has not changed from old injectors to the DDP's.
However, I have no clue the mileage on this 1991 12v engine. And the injection pump has likely never been rebuilt. I credit the blue smoke to wore out engine and injection pump.
If you follow the series of videos, Power Driven Diesel and Dynomite Diesel work closely together. And the "pilot" hole was introduced on both channels around the same time. DDP went into much more detail about the how any why.
When a set of "rebuilt" common rail injectors from a local rebuilder about took out my 05 Cummins engine, DDP saved my bacon with their inspection process. I presented the pictures and findings of contaminates from DDP's report to the local rebuilder, they completely refunded my money. From that point I started conducting business with DDP and trust their products. Their common rail injectors are fantastic. My 05 Cummins has never run smoother.
I bought a set because I had original injectors in the truck that were locally "rebuilt" and smoked worse after the rebuild. This 12v engine blue smokes pretty good at cold start up until the thermostat opens and the piston rings expand a little more. That has not changed from old injectors to the DDP's.
However, I have no clue the mileage on this 1991 12v engine. And the injection pump has likely never been rebuilt. I credit the blue smoke to wore out engine and injection pump.
If you follow the series of videos, Power Driven Diesel and Dynomite Diesel work closely together. And the "pilot" hole was introduced on both channels around the same time. DDP went into much more detail about the how any why.
When a set of "rebuilt" common rail injectors from a local rebuilder about took out my 05 Cummins engine, DDP saved my bacon with their inspection process. I presented the pictures and findings of contaminates from DDP's report to the local rebuilder, they completely refunded my money. From that point I started conducting business with DDP and trust their products. Their common rail injectors are fantastic. My 05 Cummins has never run smoother.
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Signature600
THA MAN!
Signature600
THA MAN!
Snedge
Comp Diesel Sponsor
J-Pipes
Active member
Somehow I don't think "lazy" is very accurate for you. You seem to stay pretty busy!
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biggy238
Active member
Signature600
THA MAN!
Well, that is probably true, but I'm too lazy to pull that thing out of the barn and get pictures or do anything to it when it's this cold...and there's too much salt on the roads to take it to work where it's warm.
That, and I lost 6400 sq ft of shop space that is now our offices and parts department last month, so shop space is at a premium right now LOL
Chris
Smokem
Turbler
Since I have some insight on this topic let me provide two possible scenarios.
Aftermarket parts supplier has developed a form of mechanical fuel injection that the combined resources of Bosch, Denso, Delphi, Stanadyne, and Zexel could have not imagined. And create advertising completely discounting several examples of prototypes from OEM's both in physical components and in SAE tech articles.
Or...
Said aftermarket parts supplier purchased an EDM that has an electrode range of 0.003-0.014" and since this orifice range size is quite limited in a performance setting the easiest solution is to add more orifices within the equipment's range of capability.
Aftermarket parts supplier has developed a form of mechanical fuel injection that the combined resources of Bosch, Denso, Delphi, Stanadyne, and Zexel could have not imagined. And create advertising completely discounting several examples of prototypes from OEM's both in physical components and in SAE tech articles.
Or...
Said aftermarket parts supplier purchased an EDM that has an electrode range of 0.003-0.014" and since this orifice range size is quite limited in a performance setting the easiest solution is to add more orifices within the equipment's range of capability.
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Bersaglieri
Ron Swanson's Brother
Weston, I respect your knowledge on these topics and sometimes you might not be able to disclose all you know on a public forum but do you think there is anything at all to be gained using this type of injector or is it a gimmick/flawed design? Miles per gallon? Smoke control? High or low HP applications? Is this a longevity issue like Snedge mentioned? Generally I am a skeptical consumer so of course I wanted to ask on CompD for the unfiltered answer. Maybe I have been operating in the Jurassic period for too long, but I was somewhat excited to see something new for these dinosaurs that so many folks have dismissed as antiquated.
I was compelled to start this conversation because I feel like Todd and Will are transparent and genuine in their efforts to not only test products but also distribute videos of the data and results. I think they try to control as many variables as possible and give an honest assessment of the product. Will did that for years on this forum when there was no money in it. No one is perfect, but in the performance diesel world of smoke, mirrors, and elderly intake horn messiahs I consider them better than most. I do not know or have had any interaction with DDP, so I cannot speak for them. I am simply searching for the truth.
I was compelled to start this conversation because I feel like Todd and Will are transparent and genuine in their efforts to not only test products but also distribute videos of the data and results. I think they try to control as many variables as possible and give an honest assessment of the product. Will did that for years on this forum when there was no money in it. No one is perfect, but in the performance diesel world of smoke, mirrors, and elderly intake horn messiahs I consider them better than most. I do not know or have had any interaction with DDP, so I cannot speak for them. I am simply searching for the truth.
CTD2500
Brown Between the Cheeks
I’ve had a set of DDP4s since last summer. According to one of their videos, they have five main holes slightly smaller than .016” and the two small holes are .004”—if I’m remembering correctly, that is. I’ve never been to a dyno or anything like that, but I can describe what I observed with them the best I can.
The injectors they replaced was a set of ten year old 5x.018” sac. The differences were:
-it sounds more like a VP truck when idling in drive
-throttle response is a bit snapper off idle
-power is about the same, maybe very slightly less
-black smoke output under load is significantly reduced, without that pukey gray smoke mixed in
-starting seems the same or very similar
-white idle haze when the engine is cold is about the same
This is a picture I took of one with my phone.
Overall, they are pretty expensive (for this size), but they are an improvement over the 5x.018s in terms of smoke under load, although their claims of faster starting aren’t quite as advertised. That said, my truck started pretty quick already so there wasn’t much to be gained there.
The injectors they replaced was a set of ten year old 5x.018” sac. The differences were:
-it sounds more like a VP truck when idling in drive
-throttle response is a bit snapper off idle
-power is about the same, maybe very slightly less
-black smoke output under load is significantly reduced, without that pukey gray smoke mixed in
-starting seems the same or very similar
-white idle haze when the engine is cold is about the same
This is a picture I took of one with my phone.
Overall, they are pretty expensive (for this size), but they are an improvement over the 5x.018s in terms of smoke under load, although their claims of faster starting aren’t quite as advertised. That said, my truck started pretty quick already so there wasn’t much to be gained there.
Big Blue24
Comp Diesel Sponsor
Weston, I feel like you and I used to be close friends back in the day. Over time I guess we have grown apart.
I too remember when II pushed their 10 hole injectors, and I have personally seen the sloppy wet mess they created at idle and lack of power vs smoke output on the top end. So I too wrote off adding more holes to injectors as a possible solution or worthy R&D venture. However, as a true enthusiast with access to a dyno and legitimate business budget for R&D, I bought a set of DDP's "new pilot technology" and started testing... expecting them to suck...
I'm here to tell you, on my dyno, we have racked up hundreds of hours testing this new injection nozzle technology and it legitimately is better in everything we've tested from stock to 1000 rwhp.... covering 95% of the street trucks. It worked so well in-fact, that I had to have it for my customers. If you look closely at my website, you'll see that Power Driven carries DDP products a "direct competitor", but their injectors performed incredibly well in testing.
Over time, DDP agreed to make custom nozzles for me that were my own recipe; different from DDP's offerings and thus the Power Jet was born. So although the nozzles are made on the same machines in North Idaho, the hole sizes, angles, honing, etc. are all different. Thankfully DDP is a team player and they are willing to share their nozzle manufacturing expertise with "the competition". I'm no wizard, it took several nozzle revisions and a ton of dyno testing to come up with the current Stage 2 Power Jet which I would agree is the best street injector for a 450 to 900 HP 12v Cummins bar none. The newest DDP 4's are a little better when going for more than 900 HP as we've pushed them to just over 1200 HP.
The fact that Detroit uses the same technology "since" 2017 should be a strong indicator that it demands further investigation and testing on these 25 year old trucks.... Weston, I don't want more competition in this premium multi-hole injector market so I'm okay reading your negative opinions. However, as an advocate for pushing diesel technology forward, you really should give "pilot jet technology" a closer look, especially for your street customers.
If you look closely at my website, we do not "yet" offer Power Jets for the 1500 HP race truck crowd because we have not completed testing. I can't say for a surety if Power Jet technology will be better in maximum HP applications, but its been such an improvement on the 1000 HP and less applications, I'm going to continue testing in the greater than 1000 HP environment.
So many will ask, why does it work for Detroit Diesel, DDP, and Power Driven but not for Industrial Injection, or anyone else in the Midwest that may or may not have tested multiple holes? The answer lies within the ratio of hole size between main orifices and secondary orifices. And the post EDM honing process(s) that require different size and type media to appropriately hone the different orifice size for optimal K factor.
(10) holes at 0.009" did not test well for street 12mm or 13mm p7100 pumps. So far, 10 total holes has never worked better than fewer holes. Conversely, 5 identical sized holes has never worked better than 6 or more holes with different sizes.
Why are these injectors so expensive? The nozzles start as blanks, and run through the EDM, then the hone, then back to the EDM, and finally back through the honing process.
I've built my personal performance reputation on being heavily focused on bang for the buck and inexpensive DIY mods to extract performance on a budget. Power Jets are not targeted at maximum fuel per dollar spent, they are targeted as the best injector for a given power level because they run cooler, cleaner, and make more power.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mELgMNMgEc"]Power Jet Fuel Injector Development | 12v Cummins Dyno Test | Power Driven Diesel - YouTube[/ame]
Big Blue24
Comp Diesel Sponsor
These are the last 2 videos we have released with actual live testing data:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLTJz50Nz-w"]Make More Power with Less EGTs - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCC6byF6vMQ"]Project Farm Tow Truck gets 500 HP | Power Driven Diesel - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLTJz50Nz-w"]Make More Power with Less EGTs - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCC6byF6vMQ"]Project Farm Tow Truck gets 500 HP | Power Driven Diesel - YouTube[/ame]
bateman
Active member
Agreed. Shit has gotten old.