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Old 08-12-2015, 04:58 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takedown95 View Post

Diesel pull truck accelerates at a very weak 0.5gs and has a Mass (with sled) of 26000kgs.
.5g is still pretty quick. Isn't that like 0-60 in 5 seconds or so?
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Old 08-12-2015, 08:35 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GOT-Torque View Post
Ring and pinion is the weak link right now. If anyone thinks the gears get lightly loaded at the line and progressively get heavier in a nice linear fashion as you go down the track then you have obviously never been in a pulling truck. You can literally feel it in the truck as it fights to get traction on a good track. You can even look at the datalogs and see how rpm varies up and down as it comes down the track. Compaction, soil type, tire air pressures, dips in the track, etc all play a role. I think the loading and unloading of the gears makes matters worse. The more backlash you have in your drivetrain, the more it can wind up before slamming together again.
Exactly if I were putting in the r&p I would set it up tighter. When watch pulling you can see the trucks bouncing that has to be hell on a loose r&p
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Old 08-12-2015, 10:15 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GOT-Torque View Post
I think the loading and unloading of the gears makes matters worse. The more backlash you have in your drivetrain, the more it can wind up before slamming together again.
BL doesn't play a bouncing off the coast side underload when you lose traction. It loses the load and then gets the load back , in the case of what is being explained here with bl settings being run at less than .005, you are helping to kill the gear in short order.

When you load the gear several actions take place, the pin climbs and wants to deflect out of the housing, the carrier wants to twist itself out, the tooth engagement goes from the setting you set it at and moves off that and further off to the heel.
Now when you unload those forces dissipate, and then return, and as it increases and the loading comes and goes it puts strain, however it isn't as violent as totally losing bite and getting slack driveline speed and then banging it into non moving traction.
The power is on the drive side of the tooth, the teeth deflect and bend. Running them in bind is what some are explaining and running teeth in bind slows you down and takes more power away.


Quote:
Originally Posted by takedown95 View Post
Basic equation for force: Force=Mass*Acceleration

Baddest diesel drag truck on the planet equals the acceleration of a top fuel dragster=4.2gs and has a Mass of 2900kgs

Diesel pull truck accelerates at a very weak 0.5gs and has a Mass (with sled) of 26000kgs.

Force of drag truck =4.2X2900=12,180
Force of pulling truck=0.5X26000=13,000

Even with the most ridiculous acceleration estimate for a drag truck the force on gears is greater with a pulling truck.

In terms of your trailer pulling question....rev your truck up to 5000 rpms and drop the clutch in the dirt and then try slipping out the clutch a bit and accelerating slowly and tell me which one feels more violent.
So there is a tiny difference between the two, top fuel is 4.8g at the 1st half second and by the 2nd second they are at 5.3G's

Topfuel diesel dragster uses the same diff and not nearly as powerful at TF

1 isn't having gear failures in 1000 ft
Have you wondered why that is ? i can tell you they are not at .0 bl either, and have you seen fuel cars completely back off the gas and get back in it... where it has touched the coast side of the gear? Yet no catastrophic failures.
You won't find those builds done without all the necessary tools and not having any idea where the preloads are on all the bearings.




Still no one who is making claims here to why the problems are the problems, and that 0 bl is the answer has clarified the missing procedure of this build... which is most definitely the problem.

.
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Old 08-12-2015, 10:27 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supershafts View Post
BL doesn't play a bouncing off the coast side underload when you lose traction. It loses the load and then gets the load back , in the case of what is being explained here with bl settings being run at less than .005, you are helping to kill the gear in short order.

When you load the gear several actions take place, the pin climbs and wants to deflect out of the housing, the carrier wants to twist itself out, the tooth engagement goes from the setting you set it at and moves off that and further off to the heel.
Now when you unload those forces dissipate, and then return, and as it increases and the loading comes and goes it puts strain, however it isn't as violent as totally losing bite and getting slack driveline speed and then banging it into non moving traction.
The power is on the drive side of the tooth, the teeth deflect and bend. Running them in bind is what some are explaining and running teeth in bind slows you down and takes more power away.




So there is a tiny difference between the two, top fuel is 4.8g at the 1st half second and by the 2nd second they are at 5.3G's

Topfuel diesel dragster uses the same diff and not nearly as powerful at TF

1 isn't having gear failures in 1000 ft
Have you wondered why that is ? i can tell you they are not at .0 bl either, and have you seen fuel cars completely back off the gas and get back in it... where it has touched the coast side of the gear? Yet no catastrophic failures.
You won't find those builds done without all the necessary tools and not having any idea where the preloads are on all the bearings.




Still no one who is making claims here to why the problems are the problems, and that 0 bl is the answer has clarified the missing procedure of this build... which is most definitely the problem.

.
And yet you still have 0 knowledge about what it takes to get down a pulling track. We break chit that comes out of semi trucks but yet you think proper set up will save it? You need to stick to drag racing because its obvious you have not a clue about pulling. How many drag cars have you ever worked on making over 3000 lbs of torque?!?!
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Old 08-12-2015, 10:29 PM   #65
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Interesting, I ran 0 backlash on a gear set, for nearly 3 years. It was tight enough that you had issues with turning the pinion by hand. This gear set survived
1. blowing the spider gears apart on a welded open diff
2. numerous breaking of axle bolts
3. folding up a set of a set of traction bars
4. exploding the guts of an ARB.

Again each time I put the gears back together, I ran the pnion .003" deeper than factory, shimmed the pinion race out, lots of preload, and 0 backlash.
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Old 08-12-2015, 10:48 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zstroken View Post
Interesting, I ran 0 backlash on a gear set, for nearly 3 years. It was tight enough that you had issues with turning the pinion by hand. This gear set survived
1. blowing the spider gears apart on a welded open diff
2. numerous breaking of axle bolts
3. folding up a set of a set of traction bars
4. exploding the guts of an ARB.

Again each time I put the gears back together, I ran the pnion .003" deeper than factory, shimmed the pinion race out, lots of preload, and 0 backlash.


Always a crazy video to watch lol


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Old 08-13-2015, 06:57 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supershafts View Post
BL doesn't play a bouncing off the coast side underload when you lose traction. It loses the load and then gets the load back , in the case of what is being explained here with bl settings being run at less than .005, you are helping to kill the gear in short order.

When you load the gear several actions take place, the pin climbs and wants to deflect out of the housing, the carrier wants to twist itself out, the tooth engagement goes from the setting you set it at and moves off that and further off to the heel.
Now when you unload those forces dissipate, and then return, and as it increases and the loading comes and goes it puts strain, however it isn't as violent as totally losing bite and getting slack driveline speed and then banging it into non moving traction.
The power is on the drive side of the tooth, the teeth deflect and bend. Running them in bind is what some are explaining and running teeth in bind slows you down and takes more power away.




So there is a tiny difference between the two, top fuel is 4.8g at the 1st half second and by the 2nd second they are at 5.3G's

Topfuel diesel dragster uses the same diff and not nearly as powerful at TF

1 isn't having gear failures in 1000 ft
Have you wondered why that is ? i can tell you they are not at .0 bl either, and have you seen fuel cars completely back off the gas and get back in it... where it has touched the coast side of the gear? Yet no catastrophic failures.
You won't find those builds done without all the necessary tools and not having any idea where the preloads are on all the bearings.




Still no one who is making claims here to why the problems are the problems, and that 0 bl is the answer has clarified the missing procedure of this build... which is most definitely the problem.

.
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Old 08-13-2015, 12:26 PM   #68
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Ok fine. Let's get exact.

Top fuel: 5.3gs actual acceleration, 1068kgs actual mass =5660 (lower still)

Weight (Mass) matters.

I don't believe in 0 back lash either because of tooth wear. I run my gears in with heat cycles too to reduce wear. I check pinion bearing pre-load after each run.

In the end in a 2.6 class you are limited to the strength of the ring gear and the only thing that will reduce breakage in the long run is reduction in weight or reduction in acceleration. You can change your set up to make them last a little longer and you can come out of the hole softer to make them last a little longer too.

The initial shock is what cracks them and the extreme torque at the end is what breaks them off. I've looked at the finite element analysis and until the material changes eventually enough shocks in a higher hp truck will crack them and then the torque at the end breaks them off. I've been lucky to save the rear for 9 hooks before they cracked. My truck set up is different than most and now I'm breaking fronts where before I didn't break a front in 4 years.

So in the end you can set them up to be perfect and get a few more runs out of them or you can throw them in there and replace them every 3-4 hooks. Eventually if you want to win in a competative 2.6 class you're going to break them .

Last edited by takedown95; 08-13-2015 at 12:28 PM.
 
Old 08-14-2015, 12:11 PM   #69
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There hasnt been much talk about contact patterns this is the most important thing to understand when setting pinion depth. I also think that staying within factory specs will give u the best durability. If you want to save yourself alot of trouble just hire some one who has a lot of experience, I have set up many diffs and it took several times with a pro explaining it to me to really understand what i was looking at in the contact pattern.
 
Old 08-14-2015, 12:58 PM   #70
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There is no possible way that hundreds of people are setting these diffs up "wrong", talk about setup all you want, you're just wasting your time and effort.

^ THAT SUPPOSED TO BE IN ALL CAPS, BTW.
 
Old 08-14-2015, 02:06 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kleann View Post
There is no possible way that hundreds of people are setting these diffs up "wrong", talk about setup all you want, you're just wasting your time and effort.

^ THAT SUPPOSED TO BE IN ALL CAPS, BTW.
I agree with that and disagree with that all at the same time. I was taught to set stuff up in the repair world and when I first got interested in truck pulling some 5+ years ago, reading and hearing about some of the things that go on to set up gears in a puller was making me cringe. Some of it make more sense now, some of it just makes me think some guys are getting lucky.

But at the end of the day these trucks are exceeding the limits of the size of the parts. period.
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Old 08-16-2015, 03:07 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by DISTURBED View Post
And yet you still have 0 knowledge about what it takes to get down a pulling track. We break chit that comes out of semi trucks but yet you think proper set up will save it? You need to stick to drag racing because its obvious you have not a clue about pulling. How many drag cars have you ever worked on making over 3000 lbs of torque?!?!
The easiest way to break the large RW, Eaton, Spicer, 20, 30, 40k ect or large semi rears as you refer to them?
Run them hard COLD, if im not mistaken you are also of the belief that doesn't believe having a up to temp diff is important, These large hd diffs are easily broken when you run them cold and load and unload them.

A couple, and a truck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by takedown95 View Post
I check pinion bearing pre-load after each run.

In the end in a 2.6 class you are limited to the strength of the ring gear and the only thing that will reduce breakage in the long run is reduction in weight or reduction in acceleration.

The initial shock is what cracks them and the extreme torque at the end is what breaks them off. .

So in the end you can set them up to be perfect and get a few more runs out of them or you can throw them in there and replace them every 3-4 hooks. Eventually if you want to win in a competative 2.6 class you're going to break them .
What are you expecting to find checking pin preload after each run ?

When you leave what gear are you in ? and range at the case ? when get to the end what gear are you in ?

Im not saying you aren't ever going to have a failure, but setting up a gear in the wrong position and in bind and then expecting better performance or longevity as whats being explained by some here isn't better, nor helping.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kleann View Post
There is no possible way that hundreds of people are setting these diffs up "wrong", talk about setup all you want, you're just wasting your time and effort.
Really? not one person yet has explained what the op has overlooked, but more are jumping in with i don't know pulling, pulling doesn't set the stage for why diffs are done a particular way.. A D-80 is designed to see 30k lbs, is it being exceeded probably at one point.
All im seeing here is that a person operating a puling truck should be FAR better at building differentials than someone who does that professionally.

If you pay attention you're gonna see i am right and it is thousands, not hundreds who are missing it.


Now having to do this day in and day out and see and deal with other shops that do set stuff up, you would be surprised at how many actually ARE setting things up wrong.

Are things being used improperly and causing failures . . . oh most definitely!!!
Even a great example was the video posted clearly showing how you can exceed the proper use.
The video has shown the truck wasn't able to stay planted, it wasn't the weight that caused that issue, wasn't the power technically, it was the loss of one causing the other to make it fail by doing something gears don't like. .


After this i'll leave this thread alone, as i am continually shown over and over there is no reason to discuss, and as i try instead of discussing it will get to where it is and i don't know pulling or i don't know what i do for a living and gears suddenly can be set up multiple ways better.
No one wants to discuss and see what is, instead they are positively reinforced that what they do is different and so worse than anything else.


So when you set a GEAR to deep what does the pattern look like ?

When you set a GEAR to shallow what does the pattern look like ?

When the bl is set tight where have you moved the contact ?

So IF IF you guys really know what you're talking about and how the gears work and understand the forces on them...

Why would you intentionally set a GEAR up wrong? have a tooth to tooth contact area that is MOST definitely going to fail since now it is using far less area and putting more stress on areas it wasn't machined to be operating on? Which is now forcing the bending issue far worse, and causing bending and cracking fatigue far earlier.

When gears are made they are designed, machined and then run in, lapped for that one area that can be missed by .0005 and be off the ONLY optimal strength and use setting they were designed for.

So when a gear is made it is made that the pinion and ring are to be set together at say 3.51100 and .006500 bl, at that point you have the largest contact area between the pin and ring. Now move the pin deeper to say 3.55000 and you no longer have the same area of tooth to tooth contact nor do you have the strength anymore.
Now say you have a perfect pattern at 3.51000 and want to compensate for load, then that adjustment would be very little at say 3.5190 and increase another areas load.

When people start making performance strength adjustments in gears they usually are making the wrong adjustments.


The contact between the ring and pinion will have the most area when it is perfectly aligned.... Then you have the most strength


Now where is it going to move at load.
.

.
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Old 08-16-2015, 04:15 PM   #73
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Supershafts, I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but how about to prove your point(s), you or your company/business offer a sponsorship to one of the strongest pulling trucks in your area & see what results you can get??

If you're right, I hope you have ample help at work bc pullers will spend money with folks who offer even an incling of advantage over someone else therefore you'll be a busy busy fella.

If you're wrong, you'll carry on business as usual without being bothered by every puller around.
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Old 08-16-2015, 04:55 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitneyj View Post
I only run Dana Spicer or Nitro gears, but I'm not a puller.

There's a common belief among a lot of mechanical engineers in the rock crawling world that once a gear set has violently disassembled itself into modern art that the housing is then junk/questionable. I'm on the fence about that as cast iron has a lot of "movement" to it. Do you have a different housing to try?
That's an interesting thought. Once the housing has yielded in the initial failure, there is nothing impeding it for moving again. All of the cracks from the first stress riser still exist.

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Old 08-17-2015, 10:48 AM   #75
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Supershafts is right on nice explanation man.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 10:49 AM   #76
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How about some contact pattern pics.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 11:23 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supershafts View Post
The easiest way to break the large RW, Eaton, Spicer, 20, 30, 40k ect or large semi rears as you refer to them?
Run them hard COLD, if im not mistaken you are also of the belief that doesn't believe having a up to temp diff is important, These large hd diffs are easily broken when you run them cold and load and unload them.

A couple, and a truck.



What are you expecting to find checking pin preload after each run ?

When you leave what gear are you in ? and range at the case ? when get to the end what gear are you in ?

Im not saying you aren't ever going to have a failure, but setting up a gear in the wrong position and in bind and then expecting better performance or longevity as whats being explained by some here isn't better, nor helping.





Really? not one person yet has explained what the op has overlooked, but more are jumping in with i don't know pulling, pulling doesn't set the stage for why diffs are done a particular way.. A D-80 is designed to see 30k lbs, is it being exceeded probably at one point.
All im seeing here is that a person operating a puling truck should be FAR better at building differentials than someone who does that professionally.

If you pay attention you're gonna see i am right and it is thousands, not hundreds who are missing it.


Now having to do this day in and day out and see and deal with other shops that do set stuff up, you would be surprised at how many actually ARE setting things up wrong.

Are things being used improperly and causing failures . . . oh most definitely!!!
Even a great example was the video posted clearly showing how you can exceed the proper use.
The video has shown the truck wasn't able to stay planted, it wasn't the weight that caused that issue, wasn't the power technically, it was the loss of one causing the other to make it fail by doing something gears don't like. .


After this i'll leave this thread alone, as i am continually shown over and over there is no reason to discuss, and as i try instead of discussing it will get to where it is and i don't know pulling or i don't know what i do for a living and gears suddenly can be set up multiple ways better.
No one wants to discuss and see what is, instead they are positively reinforced that what they do is different and so worse than anything else.


So when you set a GEAR to deep what does the pattern look like ?

When you set a GEAR to shallow what does the pattern look like ?

When the bl is set tight where have you moved the contact ?

So IF IF you guys really know what you're talking about and how the gears work and understand the forces on them...

Why would you intentionally set a GEAR up wrong? have a tooth to tooth contact area that is MOST definitely going to fail since now it is using far less area and putting more stress on areas it wasn't machined to be operating on? Which is now forcing the bending issue far worse, and causing bending and cracking fatigue far earlier.

When gears are made they are designed, machined and then run in, lapped for that one area that can be missed by .0005 and be off the ONLY optimal strength and use setting they were designed for.

So when a gear is made it is made that the pinion and ring are to be set together at say 3.51100 and .006500 bl, at that point you have the largest contact area between the pin and ring. Now move the pin deeper to say 3.55000 and you no longer have the same area of tooth to tooth contact nor do you have the strength anymore.
Now say you have a perfect pattern at 3.51000 and want to compensate for load, then that adjustment would be very little at say 3.5190 and increase another areas load.

When people start making performance strength adjustments in gears they usually are making the wrong adjustments.


The contact between the ring and pinion will have the most area when it is perfectly aligned.... Then you have the most strength


Now where is it going to move at load.
.

.
Sorry dude, but if that were true, we would be seeing waaaaay more heavy truck rear end work than we do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeShow View Post
Supershafts, I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but how about to prove your point(s), you or your company/business offer a sponsorship to one of the strongest pulling trucks in your area & see what results you can get??

If you're right, I hope you have ample help at work bc pullers will spend money with folks who offer even an incling of advantage over someone else therefore you'll be a busy busy fella.

If you're wrong, you'll carry on business as usual without being bothered by every puller around.

We don't have many trucks in the northeast that will shred ring and pinions. Its like the dark ages up here, so most folks who talk about ring and pinion setup on a diesel puller like they are going to change the market and figure something out no one else has are pretty much not in touch with what's really going on.
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Old 08-17-2015, 11:36 AM   #78
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"A D-80 is designed to see 30k lbs"

Case closed.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 12:10 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Win slow View Post
How about some contact pattern pics.
Sorry no pics and it made 2 passes this weekend on "power" tracks. have 2 more this coming weekend so see how it looks after that if it holds up.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 01:12 PM   #80
Win slow

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Yeah i dont agree with the heavy truck rears breaking due to being cold but a good contact pattern is key i do not even use a pinion depth tool i start with the shims that were with the housing and adjust pinion depth from there based on the pattern. It is also important backlash is set to spec when checking your pattern the best BL is when the pattern looks the best in my opinion.
 
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