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Old 05-20-2019, 11:02 AM   #1
SPEEDSHIFT
 
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To deckplate or not to deckplate?

I am planning a new short block build for my drag truck with a power goal of 1800hp on a max effort tune. Just running the calculator I should only need about 1500hp before I outrun my chassis cert, and in 5.90 I should only need around 1200hp.

I will be building the engine, and I have a buddy that will be doing the machine work. I have been looking at possibly using a deck plate engine I am just not familiar with them. I dont want a solid block mainly because of cost, with the block being $4000 then I have to build a big oil cooling system, just adds a lot. I want to be able to drive the truck to the staging lanes, make a pass, and be ready to race again if I need to in about 30mins.

So my question is, what are the cons of a deckplate engine? Can I run water through it? I saw Beans sells the plate for $650, is there anyone else?
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Old 05-20-2019, 02:16 PM   #2
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cylinder sleeves, conrods, pushrods, studs all have to be deckplate specific, which adds cost. youll have to cut a lot of your cowl out of the truck if you want to ever work on the engine in chassis.


I would personally only inquire about a deckplate setup to either D&J or Wagler
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Old 05-20-2019, 03:23 PM   #3
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Hamilton soild block seems to be popular now if your building it yourself .
 
Old 05-20-2019, 03:27 PM   #4
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Sleeves and longer rods and push rods , heads studs you will be surprised the 4,000 block isn’t bad . If you use cheap sleeves they don’t last seen that before..
 
Old 05-20-2019, 03:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poulina View Post
cylinder sleeves, conrods, pushrods, studs all have to be deckplate specific, which adds cost. youll have to cut a lot of your cowl out of the truck if you want to ever work on the engine in chassis.


I would personally only inquire about a deckplate setup to either D&J or Wagler
This will be going in my new truck build, there is no wiper cowl that wont be a problem. From what I have seen the connecting rods are $200 more than std billet version, but I havent seen prices on the rest. I cant imagine them being much more expensive than what the std parts cost, but I guess you never know.
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Old 05-20-2019, 03:48 PM   #6
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Call LA sleeve and price the sleeves
 
Old 05-20-2019, 04:02 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich dzl View Post
Sleeves and longer rods and push rods , heads studs you will be surprised the 4,000 block isn’t bad . If you use cheap sleeves they don’t last seen that before..
I will have to check around on the head studs, I may see if those new studs PDD advertises will have a deckplate version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich dzl View Post
Hamilton soild block seems to be popular now if your building it yourself .
The competition block that has a .80" higher deck is $5900. That is my concern though, was there a problem with deckplate engines, so they designed this block so you wont need one, or was it just a convenience thing to buy a block ready to bore and start assembly? IDK

I can see the benefit if you have to buy a new 6.7 block, then pay a machine shop top dollar for all the work, and then wait months to get it back. I am just not in that scenario, I have $0 in the block and crank and worked a trade deal for machine work.

My original plan was to build a 6.2 using Carillios Hybrid kit. Sleeved 6.7 block to a 5.9 piston, but some extra displacement would be nice staging a big single turbo so that has me looking into building a deckplate engine.
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Old 05-20-2019, 06:28 PM   #8
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I would deckplate it. If you ever have an issue with a piston/cylinder, you can replace the sleeve versus having to overbore or replace the block. Judging by the price difference on d&j's website, I would guess deckplate machine work/parts to be 2-3k more than a regular build.
 
Old 05-20-2019, 06:58 PM   #9
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650$ is not a horrible price, especially from a reputable name. Kevin a chaos has some solid prices, really nice guy with unlimited resources. A couple of the bigger names are now using 9/16 studs and priced pretty appropriate compared to others 14mm dplate studs. On my setup I’m using compression rings&viton orings vs a gasket. As for connecting rods, the d&j units are really hard to beat for several reasons, obtaining them can be time consuming, if you need a set ASAP, I have a set in stock with their modded bearing and wrist pins, otherwise it’s usually a couple weeks(pm for quote if needed). I know quite a few guys use the power bore sleeves, unfortunately I cannot help a guy out there. If you’re going roller setup your pushrods might not need to be the full 1” longer, usually one of the last things I spec n order.
 
Old 05-21-2019, 08:08 AM   #10
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Quote:
The competition block that has a .80" higher deck is $5900. That is my concern though, was there a problem with deckplate engines, so they designed this block so you wont need one, or was it just a convenience thing to buy a block ready to bore and start assembly? IDK
I believe the deck is .800 thicker, but not actually taller in height.


Quote:
My original plan was to build a 6.2 using Carillios Hybrid kit. Sleeved 6.7 block to a 5.9 piston, but some extra displacement would be nice staging a big single turbo so that has me looking into building a deckplate engine.
D&J highly discourages against the hybrid kit due to the smaller wristpin. They claim theyve seen them fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHammer View Post
I know quite a few guys use the power bore sleeves, unfortunately I cannot help a guy out there.
I've used quite a few sets of Powerbore sleeves. They're a very reasonable price, a good piece, and they make them in a timely manner.

I think I saw someone mention Wagler. I wouldn't put their parts in if I was paid to. I just spent $500 rebushing a brand new set of their rods. They were several years old, and changed hands a couple times, but they were still brand new. The pin clearance was .005, and the small end bore was .003 out of round. We had to bore them and put 6.7 bushings in to get them right. I called and talked to them about it, and all I got was ran in circles. I had my local machine shop fix them, and I know they're done correctly.
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Old 05-21-2019, 08:11 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9724VF350 View Post
I believe the deck is .800 thicker, but not actually taller in height.




D&J highly discourages against the hybrid kit due to the smaller wristpin. They claim theyve seen them fail.



I've used quite a few sets of Powerbore sleeves. They're a very reasonable price, a good piece, and they make them in a timely manner.

I think I saw someone mention Wagler. I wouldn't put their parts in if I was paid to. I just spent $500 rebushing a brand new set of their rods. They were several years old, and changed hands a couple times, but they were still brand new. The pin clearance was .005, and the small end bore was .003 out of round. We had to bore them and put 6.7 bushings in to get them right. I called and talked to them about it, and all I got was ran in circles. I had my local machine shop fix them, and I know they're done correctly.

I am just amazed you got your hands on a set of their rods. I thought they were just a mythical unicorn diesel part seeing as they have had a several month backorder going every time I have priced them. Glad they were on backorder now.
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Old 05-21-2019, 08:14 AM   #12
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I am just amazed you got your hands on a set of their rods. I thought they were just a mythical unicorn diesel part seeing as they have had a several month backorder going every time I have priced them. Glad they were on backorder now.
Anthony Reams had them for a project he backed out on, we got them from him. No beef with him over it, he didn't manufacture them.

I wish I would have just got a Monster Mike rods instead.
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Old 05-21-2019, 08:17 AM   #13
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Anthony Reams had them for a project he backed out on, we got them from him. No beef with him over it, he didn't manufacture them.

I wish I would have just got a Monster Mike rods instead.
Does the tractor world find it acceptable to have slightly crap parts that need finishing to use them or is it just the pickup world? There are some great manufacturers out there who sell perfect parts but far too often we have to do a lot of massaging to make others parts fit correctly and everybody we talk to act like it is just part of the game.
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Old 05-21-2019, 08:32 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9724VF350 View Post
I believe the deck is .800 thicker, but not actually taller in height.




D&J highly discourages against the hybrid kit due to the smaller wristpin. They claim theyve seen them fail.



I've used quite a few sets of Powerbore sleeves. They're a very reasonable price, a good piece, and they make them in a timely manner.

I think I saw someone mention Wagler. I wouldn't put their parts in if I was paid to. I just spent $500 rebushing a brand new set of their rods. They were several years old, and changed hands a couple times, but they were still brand new. The pin clearance was .005, and the small end bore was .003 out of round. We had to bore them and put 6.7 bushings in to get them right. I called and talked to them about it, and all I got was ran in circles. I had my local machine shop fix them, and I know they're done correctly.
I appreciate that information!
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:26 PM   #15
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After you consider the machine cost to prep a traditional 6.7 Cummins block for a deckplate, cam bushings, and 14mm hardware drill/tap, there really isn't a cheaper option than the new Hamilton Blocks.

Hamilton has (3) different blocks available that could work in your application and will not require special one-off studs, etc. The new IFG 14mm studs are holding up great in our test project and based on the 12mm test results, we're fairly confident the 14mm will never have an issue.

The solid comp block is a 4.210" bore 6.7 Cummins replica block that was cast solid with factory spec 250 MPA material. It comes setup with 14mm mains, 14mm head stud holes, and all (7) cam bushings and currently retails for $3999. In my opinion, this is the absolute strongest cylinder wall setup currently available. When deck plated, the deckplate portion will warp and become severely out of round before the solid block portion does meaning, the solid block is arguably stronger/maintains its shape better than a mild steel deckplate.

The (recently released) wet comp block is rough cast (unfinished bores) around 3.840" bore. They have an 0.800" thicker deck built-into the block without changing the deck height meaning the wide part of the water jackets starts about 1.6" down from the deck surface, not 0.700" to 0.800" down from the deck surface like a factory 6.7 block. They come setup with 14mm mains, 14mm head stud holes, all (7) cam bushings, deleted steam port holes, 300mpa material (20% stronger than OEM), 0.080" thicker cylinder walls, 0.080" thicker block outer walls, and then to take it one step further..... Hamilton analyzed all the fracture/failure points on PDD's solid block explosion and they added material in the mid-section of the block at the cam tunnel line which is the weakest point on any cast block after the cylinder walls are beefed up. The water jacket floors were raised up to add rigidity and midsection strength, the oiling passages have revised angles/hole sizes to reduce stress points in the mid section of the block, the structural webs that run down the inside of the skirts and tie into the girdle are enlarged as well. This is the Fort Knox of wet blocks and designed for water cooled 2500 HP applications. These are selling fast and retail for $5900.

Finally there is the most budget friendly Upgraded 6.7 wet block. This is a factory replica 6.7 block with the following upgrades: 300mpa material (20% stronger than stock), 14mm mains and 14mm head stud holes, 7 cam bushings, and they come with a finished 4.015" bore size (5.9 standard bore). What this means is they are like a sleeved down 6.7 cummins block without the machine cost/sleeve cost so you can run a 5.9 bore piston, 4.125" custom piston which is common for the 6.4L "budget builds/poor man's deckplate replacement" etc, or bore it out to a standard 6.7L. This block is designed for 1800 HP with the small bore size and might even do 2000HP or better on a high RPM, low torque setup with the smaller 4.015" bore size. It still has the proper deck height for the 6.7 crank so you still end up with 6.1L engine setup even with the small bore size. These blocks retail for $2900.

My shameless plug....Power Driven Diesel is a master distributor for Hamilton Cams so if you don't buy direct from Hamilton, give us a call, we have a few of these blocks in-stock!
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Old 05-21-2019, 01:11 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Blue24 View Post
After you consider the machine cost to prep a traditional 6.7 Cummins block for a deckplate, cam bushings, and 14mm hardware drill/tap, there really isn't a cheaper option than the new Hamilton Blocks.

Hamilton has (3) different blocks available that could work in your application and will not require special one-off studs, etc. The new IFG 14mm studs are holding up great in our test project and based on the 12mm test results, we're fairly confident the 14mm will never have an issue.

The solid comp block is a 4.210" bore 6.7 Cummins replica block that was cast solid with factory spec 250 MPA material. It comes setup with 14mm mains, 14mm head stud holes, and all (7) cam bushings and currently retails for $3999. In my opinion, this is the absolute strongest cylinder wall setup currently available. When deck plated, the deckplate portion will warp and become severely out of round before the solid block portion does meaning, the solid block is arguably stronger/maintains its shape better than a mild steel deckplate.

The (recently released) wet comp block is rough cast (unfinished bores) around 3.840" bore. They have an 0.800" thicker deck built-into the block without changing the deck height meaning the wide part of the water jackets starts about 1.6" down from the deck surface, not 0.700" to 0.800" down from the deck surface like a factory 6.7 block. They come setup with 14mm mains, 14mm head stud holes, all (7) cam bushings, deleted steam port holes, 300mpa material (20% stronger than OEM), 0.080" thicker cylinder walls, 0.080" thicker block outer walls, and then to take it one step further..... Hamilton analyzed all the fracture/failure points on PDD's solid block explosion and they added material in the mid-section of the block at the cam tunnel line which is the weakest point on any cast block after the cylinder walls are beefed up. The water jacket floors were raised up to add rigidity and midsection strength, the oiling passages have revised angles/hole sizes to reduce stress points in the mid section of the block, the structural webs that run down the inside of the skirts and tie into the girdle are enlarged as well. This is the Fort Knox of wet blocks and designed for water cooled 2500 HP applications. These are selling fast and retail for $5900.

Finally there is the most budget friendly Upgraded 6.7 wet block. This is a factory replica 6.7 block with the following upgrades: 300mpa material (20% stronger than stock), 14mm mains and 14mm head stud holes, 7 cam bushings, and they come with a finished 4.015" bore size (5.9 standard bore). What this means is they are like a sleeved down 6.7 cummins block without the machine cost/sleeve cost so you can run a 5.9 bore piston, 4.125" custom piston which is common for the 6.4L "budget builds/poor man's deckplate replacement" etc, or bore it out to a standard 6.7L. This block is designed for 1800 HP with the small bore size and might even do 2000HP or better on a high RPM, low torque setup with the smaller 4.015" bore size. It still has the proper deck height for the 6.7 crank so you still end up with 6.1L engine setup even with the small bore size. These blocks retail for $2900.

My shameless plug....Power Driven Diesel is a master distributor for Hamilton Cams so if you don't buy direct from Hamilton, give us a call, we have a few of these blocks in-stock!
If the math makes sense, im all for it. It is just going to be hard to beat my current situation, I already have a block, my machine work is free, and I would need new head studs, pushrods, and sleeves already. So the only cost difference I am looking at is the difference between std parts and 1" longer parts plus a $650 deck plate.

I just called the shop, spoke with Josh about getting me a price on the head studs and push rods.

Only thing is, with the Hamilton block I cant get 6.7 displacement with the taller deck and better rod angle.
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Last edited by SPEEDSHIFT; 05-21-2019 at 01:18 PM.
 
Old 05-22-2019, 12:01 AM   #17
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The deckplate does not add displacement, that is a function of crank stroke and bore size which is the same in either situation. The deckplate does help rod angle, however, for whatever reason, rod angle does not seem to make much of a difference on these Cummins engines be it, their low RPM, terrible rod angle, fuel burn rate, or what, I've spoken with several other engine builders that that did not see measurable gains in reliability or performance from improved rod angle.

Lets break it down this way: High quality flanged sleeves from LA Sleeve or Darton will run you $120 per sleeve or $720 in parts. Custom ductile sleeves from a diesel performance machinist will run closer to $900 per set.
Custom head studs will run you anywhere from $100 to $300 more than standard head studs. Additional hardware to bolt the deckplate to the block will run you anywhere from $100 to $200. Longer pushrods will cost at least $50 more per set than a standard "mass produced" length. Custom drills/taps to bump that 12mm main and head stud block up to 14mm will run $100 to $150 (good builders use new taps (standard and bottoming tap) on each block they upsize to 14mm). Custom billet rods are at least $100 more than standard. Assuming your buddy actually has the proper tooling to line bore the cam tunnel, there's $75 worth of bushings in the cam tunnel and probably $50 worth of tooling wear and tear. No one works for free so you at least have to buy your buddy dinner a few times, get him a coke, or whatever so there's cost there... the more work he has to do on the block, the more dinner's and beverage runs you'll have to make.

And finally, call up a few shops that have tested deckplate engines back to back vs an otherwise identical solid iron Hamilton block on the engine dyno, believe it or not, the solid engines make more power when equipped with the same components. Not ridiculous gains but I've heard some are seeing 50 to 75 HP gain on an 1800 HP setup... why, a solid block distorts less under load and therefore must achieve better ring seal etc. Now if you aren't planning on the solid block because you want water cooling, then I can't say how much if any increase in power you'll see with the wet comp block, but I'd still bet it will make more power than an OEM deckplated wet block setup.
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Old 05-22-2019, 12:40 AM   #18
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how about a new oem CGI block?
 
Old 05-22-2019, 08:36 AM   #19
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Quote:
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The deckplate does not add displacement, that is a function of crank stroke and bore size which is the same in either situation. The deckplate does help rod angle, however, for whatever reason, rod angle does not seem to make much of a difference on these Cummins engines be it, their low RPM, terrible rod angle, fuel burn rate, or what, I've spoken with several other engine builders that that did not see measurable gains in reliability or performance from improved rod angle.

Lets break it down this way: High quality flanged sleeves from LA Sleeve or Darton will run you $120 per sleeve or $720 in parts. Custom ductile sleeves from a diesel performance machinist will run closer to $900 per set.
Custom head studs will run you anywhere from $100 to $300 more than standard head studs. Additional hardware to bolt the deckplate to the block will run you anywhere from $100 to $200. Longer pushrods will cost at least $50 more per set than a standard "mass produced" length. Custom drills/taps to bump that 12mm main and head stud block up to 14mm will run $100 to $150 (good builders use new taps (standard and bottoming tap) on each block they upsize to 14mm). Custom billet rods are at least $100 more than standard. Assuming your buddy actually has the proper tooling to line bore the cam tunnel, there's $75 worth of bushings in the cam tunnel and probably $50 worth of tooling wear and tear. No one works for free so you at least have to buy your buddy dinner a few times, get him a coke, or whatever so there's cost there... the more work he has to do on the block, the more dinner's and beverage runs you'll have to make.

And finally, call up a few shops that have tested deckplate engines back to back vs an otherwise identical solid iron Hamilton block on the engine dyno, believe it or not, the solid engines make more power when equipped with the same components. Not ridiculous gains but I've heard some are seeing 50 to 75 HP gain on an 1800 HP setup... why, a solid block distorts less under load and therefore must achieve better ring seal etc. Now if you aren't planning on the solid block because you want water cooling, then I can't say how much if any increase in power you'll see with the wet comp block, but I'd still bet it will make more power than an OEM deckplated wet block setup.
I was referring to having 6.7l of displacement AND using a longer rod. With the Hamilton blocks, you can either use a .80 rod and 5.9 crank for 6.4l or stock length rod and get the 6.7l, a deckplate was the only way to get both. However if rod angle isnt such big of a deal, that kinda changes everything.

On the machine work, I built my machinist a transmission for his truck so we are trading labor for labor.

I gotta say I am leaning towards the Hamilton block with all this new information, which I really appreciate. I talked to a few different places yesterday, and I am up to $1700 for just the sleeves, deckplate, and difference in pushrods.

Rods will make a big overall price difference as well, and I know this is a whole different topic in itself, but if I used a deckplate I would need a set of either D&J or Wagler rods that are 3200-$3300 a set since they are the only ones I have seen that offer a 1" longer version. If I used the Hamilton block I could use a set of Apex std length billet rods and save $1300.

So there is the $3000 difference in using a Hamilton block or building a deckplate engine out of what I have.
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Old 05-22-2019, 09:10 AM   #20
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Monster Pump Mike Billet Rods STD Length - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together


This may help your decision. There are no better rods produced than these.
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