12 Valve: Blown Fire Ring Head Gasket Questions

[turboman1]

Hello,

Truck developed a ticking noise which was finally traced down to the head gasket. Weird part is that there is no coolant in the oil, no oil in coolant, and neither in the combustion chamber. The leak developed on the number 4 cylinder and at idle one could put their finger under the exhaust manifold and feel combustion product blowing onto their fingers. The head gasket has material missing where the combustion gases were coming out. All the rings look to be in perfect condition from what I can tell.

We bought the head brand new and had it surfaced along with the grooves cut in it for the fire rings(block deck was not surfaced). Fire rings and gasket came from Haisleys. H-11 head studs were used and torqued to 140 ft lbs and checked 3 times after a couple of heat cycles. The fire ring gasket setup has maybe 5000 miles on it but over a period of 3 years as the truck got to sit a lot more than I wanted it to.

Question is what to do now? I have the stock head that is unmolested and am wanting to to get a minor porting job done either route I go (i am going to do the manifold myself if I ever find time). Should i just buy new fire rings and gasket and put it all back together? Put the stock head on untouched and torque to 140 ft lbs? Get the stock head machined to go with a O-ring setup (that is if i can not just swap my cut head over already?)? Any other ideas?

Other questions I have are: 1)there seems to be combustion crossover between 1-2, 3-4, and 5-6 which almost looks by design of the head gasket...should this happen? 2) Do all styles of head gaskets have very small holes in them (I mean they don't fit the contour of the passage) where the water passages are, and what is the reasoning for this?

Sorry for the long post but I just am trying to give you guys as much information as I can.

Thanks
Adam

 

[DISTURBED]

You need to check the studs every so often 12mm will sometimes stretch. 3 retorques then forget about them isnt a good idea. Some fire rings dont like heat cycles also they will break after time. I o-ring all heads that will be street driven for that reason

 

[JBradley500]

You need to check the studs every so often 12mm will sometimes stretch. 3 retorques then forget about them isnt a good idea.

Is this true with all setups or just ones with o-rings or firerings?

 

[YOUNG GUNS15]

I was told one torque down and that's it. Studs and just a normal stock cummins gasket is what mine is going back together with.

 

[DISTURBED]

Is this true with all setups or just ones with o-rings or firerings?

When I install studs in a truck regardless if it is fire ringed/ o-ringed I always tell the owner they need to check them twice a year. Higher boosted engines need to be check more often but they should be checked every so often

 

[rtofflemire]

my experience with fire rings is that both surfaces have to be flat i had a head that was off by .003 and the fire rings only lasted 200 miles one sled pull and a few 1/4 mile passes. i would check the deck on your block and you really have to stay on top of torquing the head studs, i also had one fail because i did not retorque the studs enough and allowed the head to lift and the rings to move around and crack.

 

[turboman1]

I did re-torque the head 3 times within 5,000 miles. I would not think that H-11 material would stretch with a tensile strength that high and only a 140 ft lbs of torque but then again I have been wrong plenty of times before.

So what do you think i should do now? Truck has only seen a max of 62 psi. Should I get the stock head ported and then just throw on a stock Cummins gasket with my head studs?

Thanks
Adam

 

[OT-OF-Here]

Firering

I recently had mine fireringed. The shop did the (3) retorqs with two heat cycles and my concern before reading this thread was how often do I need to have it retorqed. I do have fairly high boost (70psi) @ wot but it's only seen that once since the firering job. What I'm wondering is that I don't read about the use of some thread locker or is it not recommended for some reason.

Input?

 

[DISTURBED]

Dont use lock tite ever on studs. It defeats the purpose of the moly lube when retorqueing the studs. Its not that the studs are stretching so much as its the fire rings over time from thousands of heat cycles may loosen from the block and head swelling from heat, causing the head to float causing them to leak, then blow. The head is no longer setting on the gasket as much as it is on the fire ring

 

[XLR8R]

All 4 main types of Cummins L6 headgaskets have different orifice sizes & shapes to direct coolant flow in most of their 15 (25 in 6.7L HG) passages.

Some OEM-spec holes are already optimized for the application, while others upgrade well to newer water jacket flow priorities.

Before we send our new Vulcan gaskets out each hole is adjusted according to head & block type & the build's basic parts package.

 

[rtofflemire]

what to do now depends on your pocket book. i have heard people having good luck with the marine headgasket and you have a good set of studs. you say your running 62psi of boost but out of what turbo? did you mic the rings to see if they were all in the same ball park depending on the ring they are supposed to have a certain crush thickness.
what do you plan on doing with the truck? if you plan on driving on the street much i would defintely do orings i think that is the only way to go! i am on my fifth fire ring gasket in the six years 50,000 miles i have put on my truck. im doing orings when i pull my motor next year to freshen it up.
i bet others will chime in idk what else works because this is all i have tried.

 

[OT-OF-Here]

Firering Longevity

Are there any GOOD reports on Firerings out there? If a guy stays up on his retorq can a guy get reliable service out of Firerings?

Surely there has to be some guys who have had good results.

Worse case,... I just had mine Fireringed, if I can get it to hold up for awhile, can I later go back and have it O-ringed? Will I need to have an oversized ring on the head or just groove the block deck side and be done? I recall Opie recommending when O-ringing to use a 12V gasket. Is that best if I go that way later?

I'd appreciate input, especially from shops who have seen a lot of this and not necessarily a one shot result. All input needed however so I can do some planning here. Tks.

 

[OrangeNV]

Surely there has to be some guys who have had good results.

scheid only does fire rings on dd and pullers, keep in mind CR's are a totally different animal when it comes to head gaskets......

Worse case,... I just had mine Fireringed, if I can get it to hold up for awhile, can I later go back and have it O-ringed?
Tks.

my machine shop told me no, i have o rings, and i was told i could not go to fire rings, the fire ring and o ring are in two different spots on the head, and the fire ring groove is not big enough to cover the o ring groove. the fire ring replaces the head gaskets "fire ring" (requiring you to cut the metal part out of the stock hg, the o ring pushes down on the head gaskets metal ring. so one replaces part of the stock hg, and o rings just push down on it.

what are your goals? ive been told o ring will hold 80 psi......fire rings were for over 80+


i think, well i know the reason any job will last is correct machining and assembly, if your fire rings are off a few thousands here or there, your gonna get some leaks......

 

[OT-OF-Here]

That's good news.

scheid only does fire rings on dd and pullers, keep in mind CR's are a totally different animal when it comes to head gaskets......



my machine shop told me no, i have o rings, and i was told i could not go to fire rings, the fire ring and o ring are in two different spots on the head, and the fire ring groove is not big enough to cover the o ring groove. the fire ring replaces the head gaskets "fire ring" (requiring you to cut the metal part out of the stock hg, the o ring pushes down on the head gaskets metal ring. so one replaces part of the stock hg, and o rings just push down on it.

what are your goals? ive been told o ring will hold 80 psi......fire rings were for over 80+


i think, well i know the reason any job will last is correct machining and assembly, if your fire rings are off a few thousands here or there, your gonna get some leaks......

I trust the shop who did the work and they have many that are running in competition and dd both and NO problems so I hope to be one of those. Goals? To hall Assh! I'm running 70psi by choice and that's high enough for me,.... the friggin' truck is an absolutely scary ride right now so I'm gonna keep up to speed on these retorqs and hope it all holds together nicely. I've spared nothing on this truck and felt I was making a good decision on the kit and the shop who did it. Time will prove me right or wrong I suppose,....as with most things.