Unacceptable Idle Haze

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Redrider2911

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Hey guys, I have been trying to check down a grey/blue idle haze I have had ever since I built the truck. I started doing mods before I ever even started the engine so it is hard to tell what the cause might be, but it definitely smells like raw fuel.

When I first started the truck with the old oem injectors it had a haze, I figured it was the old, lazy, dirty injectors. I really didn't care at the time. I racked the barrels, and turned the collar thinner on the stock delivery valves. Big difference in power, never noticed a difference in haze. I then installed some used 5x12 injectors. More power, same haze at idle. The last few months I have been running some 5x18 injectors. Same haze at idle, lots of power; but now that I am working on making the truck more comfortable, the haze is getting quite annoying.

Recently I tore the injectors down, gave them a good cleaning in an ultrasonic cleaner, reassembled, and tested pop pressure. They all seem to atomize great at 4200psi. Reinstalled them, no difference in haze. So I thought maybe it was the DVs that I machined, I picked up a good used set of 191s. Installed, no difference in haze; quite a bit more fuel when on the throttle though! I think I may have finally out fueled my compounds.

Here are the specs on the injectors.

5x.018 12V Injectors
Scheid serial # 423510
Built in 2014
Lightning Billet nozzles
Filters removed
Dual feed bodies
4200-4250 pop pressures
142* spray pattern

.008 machined off the head. Running the thinnest copper washer. Timing is at about 23* according to the lift chart, but even when I was at 18* it didn't seem to make a difference. Looking back at some blown head gasket pictures, it appears that I am spraying good in the bowl...

Are the Scheid injectors just a real dirty injector? What else could be causing the haze? The injection pump?

Thanks for any help,
Kris
 
I'd ditch the 191's for .022's or .024's can't remember which are better
 
cetanefreek said:
Stock compression ratio?
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As far as I know. I did a refresh on the motor thinking I was burning oil via leaky valve seals, etc (before I realized it was definitely raw diesel smell). Never checked compression, but man; this thing starts on the first or second revolution. I never did an actual compression check but I'm guessing it must be good.... It will even start when its 30 degrees out without it plugged in. I have to give it a little pedal and help keep the idle high for about 30 seconds. I read of a lot of people having issues with starting when timed over 20*, I don't know why I don't see that issue...

95cummins5.9 said:
191's will haze at idle.
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9712valve said:
I'd ditch the 191's for .022's or .024's can't remember which are better
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It hazed with the stock delivery valves as well as after I modified them on the CNC lathe to ressemble an .024.

E2E381DD-8B6A-42EA-A918-F71E516379EA_zpslufkkzku.jpg


191s obviously weren't my first choice, but they were cheap and a good quick way to test that it wasn't an issue with the DVs I turned myself. They definitely light the turbos a little quicker and put out a lot more smoke, more AFC tuning will be in my future if I decide to keep them this race season.
 
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My boss has a p pump sitting in a slow project. I thought about taking the 181s out of that and putting them in mine or take my modded 131s and put them in the 181 holders.

Only pictures that got a good shot of the spray pattern on the pistons while doing the head gasket.

60DC8A3C-3BA4-45DB-8ED9-19C272E6650A_zpsvwx3hasu.png


1D37D51E-AB95-4F94-A54C-936EAFA82D50_zpsqmwvudav.png
 
23 deg timing and delivery valves are gonna haze to some extent. How is it after a 30 min drive and pulling into the store hot. In that vid how warm was it.
 
Sorry. only put it in the YouTube description. Was idling for like 10 minutes from a 45* ambient start. It clears up a little if I REALLY hammer on it, some of the blue goes away but still a definite unacceptable grey haze. Let it sit there and idle for about 2 minutes and it goes back to bad blue.
 
Redrider2911 said:
Sorry. only put it in the YouTube description. Was idling for like 10 minutes from a 45* ambient start. It clears up a little if I REALLY hammer on it, some of the blue goes away but still a definite unacceptable grey haze. Let it sit there and idle for about 2 minutes and it goes back to bad blue.
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I would highly recommend having a "professional" set your pump up. I have a 215 from seth with 5x.014s 181 dvs at 20* currently. Very clean running set up all the way around. Will haze at idle if truck is cold. I've ran this fueling with 62/80 compounds and can tell you it delivers enough top end fuel to use up every bit of air your s475 can deliver.
 
Just did a few real hot pulls. Engine temp is at about 190* now and started recording as soon as I came to a stop and got out of the cab. About 40* ambient right now. To give as many details as possible, my Air/water intercooler water pump went out so right now the intercooler is really heat soaked too...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oio1LNnK3xU"]Cummins Hot Idle Haze - YouTube[/ame]

This video is only like a minute long. I don't know if you can really see he haze in the video. There is still a decent grey haze (all though not as bad as the the cold idle video). You will notice the haze slowly getting worse through out the video. If I recorded for another 3 minutes, you would see it return all the way exactly how the cold video looked.
 
admcummin said:
I would highly recommend having a "professional" set your pump up. I have a 215 from seth with 5x.014s 181 dvs at 20* currently. Very clean running set up all the way around. Will haze at idle if truck is cold. I've ran this fueling with 62/80 compounds and can tell you it delivers enough top end fuel to use up every bit of air your s475 can deliver.
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:thumbsup: thanks for the recommendation. I do plan on doing this some time this year. I might have to contact Seth soon if it means helping me get rid of this haze. :) What is he charging these days to rebuild and max a pump?
 
Raising the pop pressure may help. I'm running 5x20s at 300bar with 024s and don't have any haze at idle once it's warmed up.

You might want to check the tips too. I've had a couple over the years that didn't have great looking orifices, that hazed at idle.
 
Watching this, my VP 24V does the same thing. Injectors has been my thought.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 
Drothgeb said:
Raising the pop pressure may help. I'm running 5x20s at 300bar with 024s and don't have any haze at idle once it's warmed up.
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I might have to try that next time I pull them. I was talking to Will about buying some of their injectors too. He was saying by the looks of it, I'm spraying too much right on the edge of the bowl. I might try to really retard the timing to get it in the bowl, or put the thickest injector washer I have to even spray on top of the piston.

Drothgeb said:
You might want to check the tips too. I've had a couple over the years that didn't have great looking orifices, that hazed at idle.
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How hard are these nozzles? When I received them last summer, it almost looked like they were wire wheeled.
 
If don't want idle haze go back to stock timing and injectors . That's not bad at all . You sure the turbo is not letting oil thru . What injector washers you running ? Incomplete burn at idle causes haze . To much timing to low of coolant temp , nozzles large or spray outside of bowl . If you going be picky about haze on a 12v you gotta check everything. Run the thin washers on injectors . Make sure spray angles on injectors are to oem specs this is all factors .a lot injectors are made for the more common marine style pistons not stock pistons .
 
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Raising the opening pressure 10BAR isn't going to eliminate idle haze, most often it is due to the cone angle or the nozzle's depth in relation to the piston bowl. I've worked on several sets of the Scheid nozzles, they are not billet.
 
Rich dzl said:
If don't want idle haze go back to stock timing and injectors . That's not bad at all . You sure the turbo is not letting oil thru . What injector washers you running ? Incomplete burn at idle causes haze . To much timing to low of coolant temp , nozzles large or spray outside of bowl . If you going be picky about haze on a 12v you gotta check everything. Run the thin washers on injectors . Make sure spray angles on injectors are to oem specs this is all factors .a lot injectors are made for the more common marine style pistons not stock pistons .
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Did you watch the first video? I understand there is give and take, but I am willIng to work with it so I can get a clean idle. If it's different brand injectors, maybe some 5x18s without all the lift and pintle mods. Or some 5x16 or even 5x14. I know I should be able to out fuel the compound setup I have with some 5x14s and a pump maxed by Seth, I'm just hoping to keep the injection event shorter with the bigger injector.

I'm running the thinnest washers offered and spray angle is 142*. I wonder if I might try to turn down the injector nut a little to seat the injector further in the piston.

I verified that the turbos are not the cause by starting the engine without the turbos hooked to the exhaust manifold. Haze was just the same, I could actually see raw diesel misting out.
 
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