6.7 He561ve build up. Help needed.

Moulder

Moulder

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Jul 17, 2007
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Ive got a 07.5 4x4 2500 Dodge that I am wanting to turn into a nasty street/occasional sled puller. The only things that I have done to the truck is full deletes with xrt, exhaust, and 500+ hp suncoast trans kit and converter. Unfortunately the shop doing the trans work is having problems so that is where the truck is currently at. At this point I don't know if I want to send the trans to suncoast and upgrade to the comp68 or switch to a manual. I already have in my possession another complete 6.7 Cummins and a brand new Holset He561ve that I'd like to use as a single. My plans are to build the engine and then swap it out. This will be my first hot rod diesel and would like to make smart choices on the parts I choose for the build up. I have already contacted Fleece and they are suspose to get back with me later about the electronics for the trubo. I don't really have a horse power goal other than as much as I can squeeze out of this turbo. I posted this on CF and really didn't receive any help. Here is what I plan on doing or have questions on:

Going with billet rods (probably Crowers)
New cam (probably a Hamilton cam and not necessarly a drop in cam)
2nd get t-4 manifold
ported head with intake plenum machined off (who's intake?)
o-ring head
625 head studs
New injector tips (how big?)
Single cp3 (which one?)
Hellmann fuel tank sump
Fass pump (what is the best?)
I plan on switching from the xrt to a mm so I can change tunes on the fly.
What about a gorilla girdle? Is it needed?

This is a list I have right now. How do things sound and what would you recommend or do differently?
 
That Turbo should just plug in and go...controller is the same as the factory HE351V controller;)

Chris
 
You can try and get an ATS big foot manifold without the holes drilled. Then you can drill the holes to fit your HE561ve. That is assuming you don't need to move the turbo to make it fit in the engine compartment.
If you are getting a sump from Hellman, ask about his intake too.

Are you asking what FASS pump is the best or which lift pump in general?
 
97crewcab said:
You can try and get an ATS big foot manifold without the holes drilled. Then you can drill the holes to fit your HE561ve. That is assuming you don't need to move the turbo to make it fit in the engine compartment.
If you are getting a sump from Hellman, ask about his intake too.

Are you asking what FASS pump is the best or which lift pump in general?
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I think I would prefer a manual lift pump actually. One person will say Air Dog while the other will say Fass. I will be spending some money on this engine and want the best pertection with the fuel the engine will require. It's funny that you mentioned Hellman's intake because I was just looking at his vendors forum.
 
Signature600 said:
That Turbo should just plug in and go...controller is the same as the factory HE351V controller;)

Chris
Click to expand...

I have a picture of the 561 next to the 351 still on the engine. The controlers appear to be somewhat different. Maybe later today I'll pull off the 351 and take a closer look at both of them. Does anyone have any ideas what kind of hp I could make with this turbo?
 
If this is the turbo I am thinking about, i really see no problem in it supporting close to and maybe over 1k.
 
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Moulder said:
I have a picture of the 561 next to the 351 still on the engine. The controlers appear to be somewhat different. Maybe later today I'll pull off the 351 and take a closer look at both of them. Does anyone have any ideas what kind of hp I could make with this turbo?
Click to expand...

Let me know what you find on the controller. I have a HE551ve without the controller. Maybe I will try to put a controller from one of my HE351ves on it too.
They should make good power. As for a number.....?
 
Signature600 said:
That Turbo should just plug in and go...controller is the same as the factory HE351V controller;)

Chris
Click to expand...

The advantage to the controller is being able to tune the turbo to the truck, where as the stock HE351 MAP and Vane ECM calibrations will limit the potential of such a large charger as the HE561...
 
carpenca said:
The advantage to the controller is being able to tune the turbo to the truck, where as the stock HE351 MAP and Vane ECM calibrations will limit the potential of such a large charger as the HE561...
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So how many times have you tried it?

To my knowledge, NO ONE has tried a HE551/561 on a factory VGT truck...feel free to correct me if I'm wrong;)


And that looks like the same Delphi Smart actuator that's on the smaller ones...if you can get it close enough to a running truck, try plugging it in, and see if it does a wipe cycle when you turn the key on.


I see no reason it won't work like factory...now, would there be some advantage to controlling it differently, maybe...but until you try it, no one knows.

If I wasn't trying to keep my 2010 6.7L absolutely reliable, I would have already tried this...but it's just not something I can stomach doing to my brand new truck that get's used pulling trailers almost daily

Chris
 
Its has not been done in the shop yet. The ECM may "opererate" the HE56l, but with a bigger turbo, comes bigger wheels, which equats to more lag, and a big blow to driveability. For example: When it takes a 40% Vane position at 15mph in 2nd gear to make 8 PSI of boost with the HE351, It may take 65% VP to make the same 8 psi at the same speeds. The ECM cant tell the difference between the 351 and 561, outside of its predetermined paramaters, to compensate for the bigger charger. Make sense?

Side note: A 05 CR with a six speed just left, after spending nearly the entire afternoon tuning the HE451 to run well with his set up.
 
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Even if this turbo is plug and play, having control over the turbo will have huge benifits in my opinion. Having it tuned for the combination you're running and to be able to close or open the exhaust side at will is great. If I can ever get my truck back from the transmission shop I might plug it in and see how the turbo responds. Does anyone see any potential harm in doing this? I don't want to short out everthing in the truck or burn it to the ground.
 
carpenca said:
Its has not been done in the shop yet. The ECM may "opererate" the HE56l, but with a bigger turbo, comes bigger wheels, which equats to more lag, and a big blow to driveability. For example: When it takes a 40% Vane position at 15mph in 2nd gear to make 8 PSI of boost with the HE351, It may take 65% VP to make the same 8 psi at the same speeds. The ECM cant tell the difference between the 351 and 561, outside of its predetermined paramaters, to compensate for the bigger charger. Make sense?

Side note: A 05 CR with a six speed just left, after spending nearly the entire afternoon tuning the HE451 to run well with his set up.
Click to expand...

So the ECM can't adjust the nozzle for varying conditions? It only knows that 40% throttle takes 30% nozzle position, and so on??


After running the HE551 on my 12v...and waiting forever for Fleece to not have a controller option for me...I found that it really didn't take much movement to make the charger work pretty darn good.

Now, after owning my 2010 6.7L for a while, I think that it would work pretty decent with stock programming....but that's just based off the sound of the charger vs. approximate nozzle position that I remembered from my other testing. I won't disagree that better tuning would be beneficial, but right now I believe it's an unknown;)


BTW, what point does that 05 CR make here? It didn't have a VGT on it from the factory, so of course you'll spend lots of time tuning it...I spent way more than an afternoon tuning my mechanical HE551V



Moulder said:
Even if this turbo is plug and play, having control over the turbo will have huge benifits in my opinion. Having it tuned for the combination you're running and to be able to close or open the exhaust side at will is great. If I can ever get my truck back from the transmission shop I might plug it in and see how the turbo responds. Does anyone see any potential harm in doing this? I don't want to short out everthing in the truck or burn it to the ground.
Click to expand...

The truck shouldn't know it's a different turbo...try it, report back. That's the best way to learn things;)

Chris
 
BTW, what point does that 05 CR make here? It didn't have a VGT on it from the factory, so of course you'll spend lots of time tuning it...I spent way more than an afternoon tuning my mechanical HE551V
Click to expand...

My point is thats some pretty high expectations to assume a HE561 will run like a HE351 just by plugging it in.

Its not impossible, nothing is, its trial and error.

Plug it in, figure it out, and when your ready to be able to tune it in give us a call.
 
carpenca said:
My point is thats some pretty high expectations to assume a HE561 will run like a HE351 just by plugging it in.

Its not impossible, nothing is, its trial and error.

Plug it in, figure it out, and when your ready to be able to tune it in give us a call.
Click to expand...

So is there a controller to make a HE series charger work on my 12v? How about if I swapped an HE451 onto my 2010 6.7L??


BTW, please point out to me where I said it would run like an HE351...I just said the ECM would control it...I want to find out how well it does;)

Chris
 
If you are tired of waiting then just build the electronic controls yourself ;) This is Brayden by the way.

Caleb is correct in his statements that the vane position tables in the ECM are not going to be correct for a larger turbo. It's the same thing we deal with in the duramax world. The Cheetah turbo's we make need custom tuning to run like they should. Plugging in a 561 on a 6.7 will not run to it's best potential, you'll need to run much more closure on the nozzle ring at low engine speeds than you would with an HE351.

There are boost targets in the ecm that can adjust vane position to bring the actual boost closer to the setpoint.. but these are usually "max" limiter type tables. The driveability will suffer without tuning the vane tables.

Brayden
 
carpenca said:
If you are tired of waiting then just build the electronic controls yourself ;) This is Brayden by the way.

Caleb is correct in his statements that the vane position tables in the ECM are not going to be correct for a larger turbo. It's the same thing we deal with in the duramax world. The Cheetah turbo's we make need custom tuning to run like they should. Plugging in a 561 on a 6.7 will not run to it's best potential, you'll need to run much more closure on the nozzle ring at low engine speeds than you would with an HE351.

There are boost targets in the ecm that can adjust vane position to bring the actual boost closer to the setpoint.. but these are usually "max" limiter type tables. The driveability will suffer without tuning the vane tables.

Brayden
Click to expand...

Good enough...I'm not dumb enough to think that I'm smart enough to build the controller...I'm not.

But I have tried a LOT of different turbo setups, and know what works and what doesn't. The VGT's are a new animal to everyone...glad you guys are doing it...but it's been a long time since you guys told me another month for the 12v style controller.

Glad to see some insight on what the ECM can and can't do with the nozzle position.

Chris
 
So, does fleece have access to the tables to know there is a max setting? Did you access the computer?
 
Delinquent said:
If this is the turbo I am thinking about, i really see no problem in it supporting close to and maybe over 1k.
Click to expand...

The compressor on a '561 has about the same output as a GT42....low 90ish lbs/min range.

One other thing that needs to keep in mind is that most VGTs are not designed to run stupid high pressure ratios on the turbine side. The efficiency can fall off dramatically after you push past the design flow range by much. When you hit the sweet spot, though, they show some very impressive capabilities.
 
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