Help me find a powerful light weight diesel

E

ExoticHunter

New member
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
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3
While I am not new to building high performance vehicles, I am new to the world of performance diesels. I hope to learn enough from the experienced members of Competition Diesels to power my next project car with a diesel motor.

Of course the first decision to make is which motor to begin with?

What little factual information I have found so far has me leaning toward selecting a Duramax LBZ or LMM. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the Duramax appears to be the lightest offering by the big three, with the best aftermarket support.

Where you guys can really enlighten me is by sharing your knowledge about what foreign diesel V8 or V10 motors I should consider.

Most importantly please list any lighter than the Duramax, and list any with an aluminum block.

Thank you
 
I'd go with the DMax, but if you're open to forging new ground, these kick ass and would be awesome in an unlimited funds repower:

VW V10 TDI

4.9/5.0 V10 TDI PD 230-258kW

This '4.9' or '5.0' badged V10 TDI diesel engine is only used in Volkswagen Passenger Cars 'premium' models. At its launch in the Volkswagen Phaeton, it became the most powerful diesel engined car in the world. A heavily modified dry sump version was used in an LMP1 Lola sports car to compete in the 2004 Le Mans under a Caterpillar badge. "24 Heures du Mans". Perkins.com. Perkins Engines Co. Ltd. 16 March 2006. Retrieved 29 September 2009.

identification
parts code prefix: 07Z
engine configuration & engine displacement
90° V10 engine, Turbocharged Direct Injection (TDI) turbodiesel; 4,921 cubic centimetres (300.3 cu in), bore x stroke: 81.0 by 95.5 millimetres (3.19 in × 3.76 in), stroke ratio: 0.85:1 - undersquare/long-stroke, 492.1 cc per cylinder, 88 millimetres (3.46 in) cylinder spacing, compression ratio: 18.0:1, water-cooled alternator
cylinder block & crankcase
low-pressure die-cast aluminium alloy (AlSi8Cu3); bolted-on grey cast iron bearing tunnel and crank carrier with six main bearings, die-forged steel cross-plane crankshaft with 18 degree crankpin offset to achieve a 72 degree even firing order, contra-rotating balance shaft, diagonally cracked forged connecting rods, two-part cast aluminium alloy baffled oil sump
cylinder heads & valvetrain
cast aluminium alloy; two valves per cylinder, 20 valves total, each with two concentric valve springs and bucket tappets, 2x gear-driven single overhead camshaft (2xSOHC - one overhead camshaft per cylinder bank) utilising a separate cassette-type 'motor control module'
aspiration
two air filters with two hot-film air mass meters, twin-turbo: two electrically-controlled Garrett GT1852V variable vane turbochargers, two side-mounted intercoolers (2xSMIC), two cast alloy intake manifolds
fuel system & engine management
Pumpe Düse (PD) diesel direct injection: one underfloor electric fuel lift pump, two camshaft-driven low pressure fuel pumps supplying common fuel rails (one per cylinder bank), ten camshaft-actuated UI-P1 2,050 bars (29,730 psi) Unit Injectors with solenoid-actuated nozzles, 72° injection interval; two Bosch EDC16 32-bit electronic engine control units (ECUs) working on the 'master/slave' method
exhaust system
water-cooled exhaust gas recirculation (EGR), air-gap insulated cast iron exhaust manifolds, two close-coupled ceramic catalytic converters, two main underfloor oxydising catalytic converters, EU3 emissions compliant
dimensions
length: 544 millimetres (21.4 in)
4.9 DIN-rated motive power & torque output, ID codes
230 kilowatts (313 PS; 308 bhp) @ 3,750 rpm; 750 newton metres (553 ft·lbf) @ 2,000 rpm — AJS, BLE, BKW (North America)
5.0 DIN-rated motive power & torque outputs, ID codes
230 kilowatts (313 PS; 308 bhp) @ 3,750 rpm; 750 newton metres (553 ft·lbf) @ 2,000 rpm — AYH, BWF
258 kilowatts (351 PS; 346 bhp) @ 3,500 rpm; 850 newton metres (627 ft·lbf) @ 2,000 rpm — CBWA: Touareg R50
 
Mercedes' lines of straight-six 3.0Ls and 3.0L V6's seem to be good candidates for modification, and quite popular for this in Finland of all places. Mostly the inlines though.

The new V6 has an aluminium block for lightness, but it also has cylinder sleeves from CGI - compacted graphite iron - for durability and toughness.

Audi/VAG make a lot of different diesel engines - the abovementioned being one. Audi has a 4.2L crossplane V8 in their lineup. With an open exhaust it should even 'sound right'.

http://www.ourexcellentadventures.com/wp-content/documents/OM642.pdf
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List of Volkswagen Group diesel engines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Audi V8's block weighs 62 kgs vs the Mercedes V6's 41 kgs.
 
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Depending on the size of your car, a Jeep Liberty CRD motor is another option. 2.8L 4 cyl, DOHC, 16v, common rail. I've always thought one of these in a miata sized car would be a fun.

A BMW 3.0L I6 would be another option for a common rail, dohc motor.

As Jellydonut said, the Audi 4.0L or 4.2L V8's are viable motor that's much lighter a Duramax with crazy potential.

If money is absolutely no object, grab an Audi 6.0L V12. Common rail, dohc, 500hp and 740lb ft stock!


No matter what motor you go with, look up Skynam Commander ECU. It's a standalone diesel ECU that can run damn near anything.
 
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ExoticHunter said:
While I am not new to building high performance vehicles, I am new to the world of performance diesels. I hope to learn enough from the experienced members of Competition Diesels to power my next project car with a diesel motor.

Of course the first decision to make is which motor to begin with?

What little factual information I have found so far has me leaning toward selecting a Duramax LBZ or LMM. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the Duramax appears to be the lightest offering by the big three, with the best aftermarket support.

Where you guys can really enlighten me is by sharing your knowledge about what foreign diesel V8 or V10 motors I should consider.

Most importantly please list any lighter than the Duramax, and list any with an aluminum block.

Thank you
Click to expand...

I think to be most helpful we need to more about what type of vehicle you are looking for and for what purpose?

Do you want a pickup? An SUV? A compact car?

Are you going to race it? In a straight line or around corners?

Are you looking for the most horsepower and torque possible or are you going for the fastest possible or for the best fuel mileage possible?

Too many variables to start recommending things....
 
First, thanks to all of you for participating in this discussion.

I will actually choose a vehicle to accommodate the selected power train. Ultimately, the vehicle will be street driven and used occasionally on a road course. I would attempt to extract the most streetable horsepower with the limiting expectations of equal engine build cost and superior fuel economy when compared to the same vehicle of equal performance had I selected a gas motor instead.

This means the diesel motor must produce more power than the gas motor to offset the negative effect its weight will have on track times. This is why I am so focused on weight.

To continue our conversation with what you guys have suggested so far:

I could choose the 567lb Audi 4.2L V8 with 350hp & 600ft-lb: I guess this is the most available of Audi V8 and larger diesels. What is the price range for a used V8?

Next is the 5.0L V10 with 350hp & 630ft-lb: Similar power, but I’ll assume there is greater potential due to its larger displacement. How much does this engine weigh including accessories? What is the price range for a used V10?

Unless someone disagrees, I am not going to consider the V12 simply because I don’t believe they were sold in the US and obtaining a used one would be difficult and cost prohibitive.

Lets include in our discussion the Duramax with its 365hp & 660ft-lb: Hopefully you diesel guys can tell me how much they cost used and how much they weigh. For now, I will assume the Duramax will be much easier to find and less expensive, but up to 300lbs heavier!!

Can anyone provide statistics for BMWs 4.4L with 330hp & 530ft-lb or for any of Mercedes’ V8, V10 or V12 diesels?
 
If I were you I would get a Cummins or a Duramax. Yes they are heavier than SUV engines but they have the most proven track record of being reliable and making big power. There will not likely be nearly as many mods for the SUV engines as there are for the pickup engines, so you will be able to make far more power with a pickup engine. You could also consider the 4BT Cummins engine.
 
Here is a list of things to ponder in your quest, overall power achievable, ease of power being made, i.e., how hard are the upgraded parts to come by, ease of putting that power to the ground.

In order...

You can take a Dmax to over 1000HP, and still drive it on the street, manners are not the best, but it is doable. Take that same motor making 550HP and you have very good street manners with proper tuning, flip a switch to bring in a more aggressive tune for the track.

A 1.9 TDI VW can make about 75HP per liter and live for quite a while, much more than that and you start running into issues with the internals over the long term. Take that same motor and add some better parts to the internals and 100HP per liter is very much doable, and livable. Extend that out to the V-8 or 10 and you can get some nice power out of them, that it should be able to hold.

And that brings up the next concern, how to make the power? The knowledge base is very much around to do a Dmax as a standalone motor, and how to get the most out of it. Aftermarket support is very available here in the US, just depends on how much you want to spend LOL

The VW knowledge base is pretty good here thanks to TDI club and a few others, but the parts to up the power??? They are out there, but they will not be cheap.

Now, the final question, how are you going to put the power to the ground? I have no clue what type chassis you are looking at, so this is going to be a guess that it will be rear wheel drive. In that case with the Dmax you have the range of chevy trannys available, with the attendant hot rod base to build what you need. Almost all of them will bolt up with at most, a readily available adaptor.

The VW can of course use the stock tranny, which is a good unit, how much will it hold power wise, and what kind of abuse will it take? If the stock unit will not take much of either, where can you get the parts and knowledge to make it take the abuse?

Just some things to think about, and I am going off the assumption that you will not be leaving whichever you choose in stock trim.

The Dmax is readily available, is the same size and roughly the same weight as a big block chevy, you can trim them down to around 800lbs, maybe less.
 
Get a Duramax or a VW R32 and swap a TDI in. 300hp + AWD + 3000lbs vehicle= FUN!

Or and Audi TT with a TDI, same as the R32 but looks better.
 
funny a buddy at work just bought a BMW 335-something with 6 cyl twin turbo diesel. I honestly don't know anything more about it. but I can find out on monday. It "looks" like it hauls ass though.
 
ExoticHunter said:
First, thanks to all of you for participating in this discussion.

I will actually choose a vehicle to accommodate the selected power train. Ultimately, the vehicle will be street driven and used occasionally on a road course. I would attempt to extract the most streetable horsepower with the limiting expectations of equal engine build cost and superior fuel economy when compared to the same vehicle of equal performance had I selected a gas motor instead.

This means the diesel motor must produce more power than the gas motor to offset the negative effect its weight will have on track times. This is why I am so focused on weight.

To continue our conversation with what you guys have suggested so far:

I could choose the 567lb Audi 4.2L V8 with 350hp & 600ft-lb: I guess this is the most available of Audi V8 and larger diesels. What is the price range for a used V8?

Next is the 5.0L V10 with 350hp & 630ft-lb: Similar power, but I’ll assume there is greater potential due to its larger displacement. How much does this engine weigh including accessories? What is the price range for a used V10?

Unless someone disagrees, I am not going to consider the V12 simply because I don’t believe they were sold in the US and obtaining a used one would be difficult and cost prohibitive.

Lets include in our discussion the Duramax with its 365hp & 660ft-lb: Hopefully you diesel guys can tell me how much they cost used and how much they weigh. For now, I will assume the Duramax will be much easier to find and less expensive, but up to 300lbs heavier!!

Can anyone provide statistics for BMWs 4.4L with 330hp & 530ft-lb or for any of Mercedes’ V8, V10 or V12 diesels?
Click to expand...



Is my impression correct that even here in import section, most of you believe I should give up on pursuing the answers to my questions and using a lighter diesel motor because the difficulty and cost is just too great when compared to the tried and true Duramax?
 
ExoticHunter said:
Is my impression correct that even here in import section, most of you believe I should give up on pursuing the answers to my questions and using a lighter diesel motor because the difficulty and cost is just too great when compared to the tried and true Duramax?
Click to expand...

Correct, unless size is a major concern, then consider a 4bt cummins or a vw diesel.
 
ExoticHunter said:
Is my impression correct that even here in import section, most of you believe I should give up on pursuing the answers to my questions and using a lighter diesel motor because the difficulty and cost is just too great when compared to the tried and true Duramax?
Click to expand...

Not to me, no, what I look at is the relative ease and availability of parts for the Dmax here in the US. There are other options, but how much will they cost? I am also going off the assumption that you will not be keeping it at stock power levels. If you are going to keep it stock or mildly tuned then yes, your options open up considerably. If this was a money not an object build??? VW V10, best power to weight available.
 
Billysgoat said:
Not to me, no, what I look at is the relative ease and availability of parts for the Dmax here in the US. There are other options, but how much will they cost? I am also going off the assumption that you will not be keeping it at stock power levels. If you are going to keep it stock or mildly tuned then yes, your options open up considerably. If this was a money not an object build??? VW V10, best power to weight available.
Click to expand...
Exactly. If you want to use an odd power plant it will almost need to be a cost no object build.
 
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