In light of recent events.

[Timbeaux]

Guys, I yanked the banter out and moved it here:
http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?p=311414&posted=1#post311414

 

[LOGANSTANFORTH]

I am Gary's wife and I would like everyone to know I was there with him at the race. I know alot men do get crap about the money, but I love him to much to give him up because I was cheap. But the truck he race's I am behind him all the way with safety. I love racing just as much as he does, so if he needs the money--go for it. Money comes and goes, but I can't replace him.

Loretta:thankyou2: *nx*

great post Loretta....:clap:

 

[mswrongway]

If that is what the rules call for then I guess that's when we would decide if we want to race them or not. Our bracket trucks sit in the shop 95% of the time, but can still be daily driven if we want to. I personnally drive an 08 Jeep Sahara Wrangler on a daily basis.

I'm for keeping my drivers safe. Our race team is like my family and their Safety is the #1 priority as I am sure it is with your race team.

Sheila

To Sheila and Dennis, I have to say I love you guys!! If you can't be safe stay at home or just watch from afar.

Loretta you all know me as Gary's wife:Cheer:

 

[mswrongway]

Yourr either trying to insult Gary or are actually clueless. Yes, Gary slid through the lights at 91 or whatever...but he was off the throttle well before that, hit a wall, etc. That truck has done 1/8 mile mph none of your trucks are even remotely capable of.
Get your facts straight and your blinders off or please refrain from
posting in this thread. You are skewing the facts to fit your persanal agenda...and screwi g up this thread in the process.

Thanks everyone here acts like that was Gary's first time driving that truck on the track. Well my fell drivers it was not his first time driving that truck on the track.

Loretta

 

[JasonCzerak]

Thanks everyone here acts like that was Gary's first time driving that truck on the track. Well my fell drivers it was not his first time driving that truck on the track.

Loretta

I realize this. However, I posted a question in another thread asking what he did wrong? I've seen vehicles getting more outa wack at around the same place and recover (just on the show pinks all-out last night!).

Did he feel he over corrected and lifted to much? what? From the video it looks like them front wheels were turned quite a bit a they never turned back as he lifted, hence the left hand turn.

 

[Diesel Tech]

Who knows what went wrong for sure, the simple fact is that it happened and most likely is going to happen again to someone else. The question is how can we as a group try to make sure it happens as little as possible and what safety measures should be required.

 

[sheldon]

With all due respect, giving blame to a driver during a racing accident is not the thing to do, safety equipment was invented to protect the driver when he/she loses control of the vehicle. To say one driver could have done something different or better during a crash is off base, when it happens you are along for the ride! Some of the best drivers in the world could not save themselves with talent ( Dale E. A.Senna ..... the list is long.) also the question of the roof and a,b,c pillars being stronger than a passenger car, this is true but, after all it is still just folded sheet metal, it does a good job of holding up your windshield and keeping the rain off your head not much more.

 

[wrongway]

Who knows what went wrong for sure, the simple fact is that it happened and most likely is going to happen again to someone else. The question is how can we as a group try to make sure it happens as little as possible and what safety measures should be required.

Amen Brother. Gary

 

[389sixpack]

Read the first post and the topic is safety for trucks running 11.49 and quicker.

And now I’m hearing roll bars for 13.99 and faster trucks. So, I’ve been racing since 1972 in cars, bikes, boats and now playing with a BA trucks. I’m all for safety requirement and needs when they fit the application. I know first hand what going into a wall at 120mph feels like. Had a few other accidents to (and Pat, they are called accidents because we don’t plan them), So here is my 2 cents worth, lets look at some things:

For a given kinetic energy, flip the equation to find speed. Go from:

Energy = 1/2 mass x velocity^2

to:

Velocity = square root ( Energy x 2 / mass )

So, for our 99,100,000 lb-ft energy number (which equals about 4,176,085 joules):

Velocity (in MPH) = [ square root (99,100,000 x 2 / mass, lbs ) ] / 1.4666

(The 1.4666 is the correction from feet per second to miles per hour)

Here's a graph, holding kinetic energy constant and varying speed, mass. Threw 2800 lbs on there for the Type D for reference.

And keep in mind - that line is the MAXIMUM limit that the NHRA 8.50 ET max cage is good to. If you're above the line, you need MORE than their standard specified full cage.

This is a lot of energy to talk about dispersing, guys - we need to be realistic about it - you've got to address it, and properly, in case an 'ooops' happens, to be safe.

The 99,100,000 number is awfully close to an even billion lb-ft - I've got a sneaking suspicion that's what SFI used as a base number for determining the spec.

Matt, trying to use a KE only model to propose a standard won’t cut it. KE of the entire vehicle is drastically different in the cab when considering the mass, frame structure and dynamics that needs to examined. The primary purpose of the roll bar or roll cage is, as stated, “roll”. Looking at head on or total KE has minimal impact to a rollover scenario model to design a roll bar or cage. To accurate come up with a baseline requirement, that is realistic, a complete design concept (which would be different for each model truck) would need to be run through a dynamic structural analysis for roll over scenarios with probably 100 to 500 Monte Carlo runs. Oh, and unless you are using new math, 99,100,000 lb-ft is about 900,900,000 lb-ft away from a billion!!

Matt,

Thank you for that info!!

Taking your graph at face value, basically any of today's trucks making more than ~600 hp or going faster than ~12.5 sec., by SFI standards needs the "STRENGTH" of an 8.50 max. cage. Now I emphasize "strength" because, as many people have brought up, there are inherent qualities of the trucks that make them stronger from the get go than your typical unibody car. This is why some serious and real testing needs to be done that can determine how far above, if at all, the initial "strength" of your typical full framed 3/4 ton truck is compared to a car.

Who knows, this type of testing could prove that current NHRA requirements are more than adequate with maybe just an increase in tube or wall thickness size because of the weight. :Cheer:

Greg, see note above – but I personally would move up to a thicker wall moly tube than the current 0.097”(?) requirement. All my old roll bars were 2” OD 0.120” wall moly.

One quick question - where is the 3600 lb limit in the NHRA rulebook? I'm not saying it isn't in there, but I didn't find it this morning during a quick glance through it.

I appreciate the use of math and science in the discussion, rather than emotion and innuendo. The kinetic energy calculations are effectively summarizing the effect of the vehicle striking another object (another vehicle or the guardrail). This is an important consideration, particularly regarding pairing of vehicles and strength of guardrails.

The other issue we need to be concerned with is protection of the driver of the subject vehicle. Damage to said driver can come from either rapid deceleration (impact), or from being physically crushed (temporary or permanent deflection of the driver's compartment). Neither of these are going to directly correlate with the kinetic energy calculations (although deflection will be somewhat related). The deceleration effect is going to be reduced by the mass of the vehicle. In other words, I would be much better off in the 7500 lb vehicle at 110.9 mph versus the 3600 lb vehicle at 160 mph. The guardrail will sustain similar damage, but my body will have been subjected to much lower peak deceleration values. I think the NHRA guidelines are sufficient with regard to deceleration-only injuries.

This leaves the deflection of the driver's compartment as an issue. I think I mentioned this a few weeks ago in a different thread. Someone could run some dynamic simulations, coupled with finite element analysis (FEA) of the cage structure, to determine appropriate levels of structure. My first-blush approach would be to simulate striking the wall at speed from various angles. One could also estimate the maximum height a vehicle could "catapult" given speed and guardrail geometry, and use that as the basis for rollover cage calculations. It's my observation that barrel rolls, while spectacular to watch, do relatively little cage damage.

All of this stuff was recently examined by NHRA, SFI, John Force Racing, and Ford. Maybe some of those consultants will be willing to work on this again for diesels?

Regards,
Michael Pliska

Mike, whole heartedly agree that real analysis needs to be done, not just back of a napkin calculations.

Let me add this to the above post...

How do you know you would be ok at those speeds with just a roll bar per the weight of your truck. Answer? No one knows. That's why this thread was started. Are we going to have to wait til someone flips a 10 second truck going 120+ mph with only a roll bar and see what happens??
Sheila

Shelia, it’s really more complicated than 10s and 120+, but more 7500lb truck flopping about on its roof at 120+mph – worst case would be a hopping barrel roll. If you are running 10’s, I’m pretty sure this isn’t a DD anymore and a cage shouldn’t be an issue. As for the slower DDs 11.49 and faster, these trucks have to meet some basic minimal roll over requirements to get out the door but for the drag truck, we know that is not enough at these speeds. So yes, I think they should have adequate roll over protection added, but this could be a 4 or 6 point bar, but needs analysis.
NHRA rules may cover us, but the point I’m trying to get across is requiring roll bar and roll cages may be excessive at this point for slower vehicles (13.99-11.50). Only when an analysis is completed will we really know the answer. As for me, if I was to run a truck at 11’s or 10’s it sure would have some roll protection, as I did with all my cars, and some of them were 10s DDs.

Maybe to help keep this on topic...

Nobody is looking to make an immediate rule change that I am aware of. There are many things we need to look at as far as this incident is concerned. Until the better video makes it, you cannot tell what happened at the end of the track to tell if the cage was tested or not. But regardless, this accident tells us nothing about whether a cage can take a full out roll etc. This is just more info we can hopefully learn from.

I have been unable to reach Chris to discuss with him what happened. He was there, I was not. I am also hoping all of the diesel associations can come together to discuss this incident.

NHRA has rules set for mostly cars. Trucks are a very small part of their racing program. I would hope that each of you enjoying this sport will keep that in mind when any diesel race association formulates rules. Nobody makes rules for the fun of it. More rules, the more we have to enforce. But, one simple question that each of you can answer. If I was the one responsible for all of the staff, racers and spectators, what would I do?

I think the issues we need to discuss are. What can we do to make our trucks safer? What can we do to educate drivers and make sure they are capable to handle their ride? What can we do to make it safe as possible when something does go wrong?

Common sense is all that needs to apply here in your thought process. While some say they feel safe in these trucks or are capable of handling their ride, this is a one sided view. If there had been another truck to the left of Gary, they possibly would have been involved due to no fault of their own.

As someone mentioned earlier, with the advance in HP over the last couple of years, there are full size 4x4 in full street trim now running low 11's and quicker. They could also be piloted by someone that is doing this for the first time and has not one clue on how to handle the truck when something goes wrong. To make matters worse, we are heavy and tall. Nobody wants to wreck. Nobody wants to get hurt. But wrecks are going to happen, and somebody will eventually get hurt. We need to be real smart here. Not over react, but produce a calculated minimum standard we should obtain before trucks can run this fast.

David, I concur with the calculated part – no guesstimates.

Nigel

 

[389sixpack]

Ok, here's the breaks as I understand them from the NHRA rulebook.

11.49 to 10.00 - 5 pt. rollbar required. Max car weight = ? I'm going to use 4750 here, from Greg's earlier note about the max weight allowed for a sub-10 sec NHRA cage. (They allow a 5 pt rollbar in cars between 11.5 and 10.0 as long as the body / firewall / frame is stock and complete.)

135+ OR 9.99 and quicker = NHRA 8 pt cage, up to 8.50 ET (around 160 MPH). NHRA 3-year certification tag required, max weight 4750.

8.49 and down (161+) requires an SFI 25.5 spec cage, max weight 3600.

So, we've got 'stages' of required in-cab protection as follows, based on a kinetic energy threshold.

Rollbar required at anything over: 11.49 ET (Approximately 118 MPH) @ 4750 lbs.
Equivalent KE: 71,136,162 lb-ft

NHRA 8pt Cage required at anything over: 9.99 ET OR 135 MPH @ 4750 lbs.
Equivalent KE: 93,109,492 lb-ft

SFI 25.5 Cage required at anything over: 8.50 ET (Approximately 161 MPH) @ max 3600 lbs.
Equivalent KE: 1,000,000,000 lb-ft

If you notice, there's a couple gaps - if a 4750 lb car is running 8.51 @ 160 MPH, it's going to be packing a lot more KE (1.31 bill. lb-ft) into it's NHRA 8pt cage than a 2800 lb Pro Stock Truck running 174 with an SFI full chassis (0.91 bill. lb-ft).

In reality, there aren't any 4750 lb cars running those speeds. BUT, the SAME ENERGY (1,310,000,000 lb-ft) is generated by an 8000 lb truck running just 123 MPH.

The atttached graph tries to illustrate these 'breaks' or brackets, using a given kinetic energy as a dividing line.

The white area is the equivalent of running sub-118 MPH @ 4750 lbs - kinetic energy at or under 0.71 billion lb-ft. Notice it's capped at 118 - any MPH over that will put you under 11.49, the break for requiring at least a bar. Notice how it drops as weight increases to the right. An 8000lb truck generates enough KE to need at least a bar by 91 MPH.

The green area is the 'Roll Bar' zone, with kinetic energies between 0.71 and 0.93 billion lb-ft. Notice it's also capped at 135 on the left - that's the NHRA breakpoint for needing a full 8-point cage.

The yellow area is the '8 Point Cage' zone, with kinetic energies between 0.93 and 1.31 billion lb-ft. Notice the sloped dash line - that's the KE line for a 3600lb car @ 161 MPH (8.50 ET). I didn't use that as the upper limit for the 'cage' area because of what I mentioned above - the mythical 4750 lb car running 8.51 @ 160, legally. That car's equivalent KE line is the upper boundary of the 'cage' area.

Anything in red crosses over into SFI territory - and there's nothing that's really representative, as their chassis specs are capped (currently) at 3600 lbs.

So, what can we take from the graph?

8000 lb trucks running between 91 - 104 MPH need a bar. 104 to 123 needs an 8 point, NHRA certified cage. Over 123 and the basic NHRA 8pt cage likely won't cut it.

6000 lb trucks running between 105 and 120 need a bar. 120 to 142 needs aan 8 point, NHRA certified cage. Over 142 and the basic NHRA 8pt cage likely won't cut it.

And so on, by weight.

Attached a table with values every 500 lbs, so you can see where your rig fits in.

So, back on topic: for guys running sub-11.5 (call it faster that 120 MPH): If the truck weights more than 6000 lbs, it needs a full 8 point NHRA certified cage to be on par with their current rules / weight limits, regarding equivalent, worst-case kinetic energy. (4750 lbs @ 135 MPH = 6000 lbs @ 120 MPH).

Ref: http://www.nhra.com/contacts/tech_faq.html

Matt, your numbers are a bit skewed.
My math shows a 161mph, 4750 lbs to come out at 132,415,470.3 lb-ft. Your post above states 1,300,000,000 lb-ft. Your off about 1.1+ billion!!

And your example of an 8000 lb truck at 123 mph comes out to 260,329,612.1 lb-ft.

Not sure if this error is translated to the spread sheet you posted. Please check your math.

And as I posted above, the KE is not a direct correlation to roll over forces.

 

[JasonCzerak]

Who knows what went wrong for sure, the simple fact is that it happened and most likely is going to happen again to someone else. The question is how can we as a group try to make sure it happens as little as possible and what safety measures should be required.

Wow, So no one with intimate knowledge of what ever went wrong won't say anything?

hmmmm ok. So it's just going to be "lost control and the roll cage worked, so, everyone put in a roll cage!".

I hate to be a-hole here, but If you're going to tell a story about a crash, lets get some get all of the details out, not just some hand picked ones.

 

[JasonCzerak]

With all due respect, giving blame to a driver during a racing accident is not the thing to do, safety equipment was invented to protect the driver when he/she loses control of the vehicle. To say one driver could have done something different or better during a crash is off base, when it happens you are along for the ride! Some of the best drivers in the world could not save themselves with talent ( Dale E. A.Senna ..... the list is long.) also the question of the roof and a,b,c pillars being stronger than a passenger car, this is true but, after all it is still just folded sheet metal, it does a good job of holding up your windshield and keeping the rain off your head not much more.

There was never any blame. People mess up and make mistakes. Saying he did wrong isn't blaming at all. Part the learning process is to show what an over correction has done. Not many folks will see that in the video and under stand WHY the truck made a left hand turn. I'm not disrespecting anyone for any reason. But then again, I'm not a big time racer, so ignore me.

The only obvious is the end result here is he did the safety parts correct. But What isn't obvious is why it happened they way it did.

 

[wrongway]

Wow, So no one with intimate knowledge of what ever went wrong won't say anything?

hmmmm ok. So it's just going to be "lost control and the roll cage worked, so, everyone put in a roll cage!".

I hate to be a-hole here, but If you're going to tell a story about a crash, lets get some get all of the details out, not just some hand picked ones.

Let me say this real SLOW so that you will understand. I sat there trying to get the turbo's to light. I was having some timing issue's that I fought all day. I rolled on out of the light's with the intention's of lighting the charger's and get a feel for the truck. You gotta remember this is only the sixth pass on this truck, new everything, 4 link, timing, new slick's, the whole nine yards. The charger's finally lit just before the end of the concrete, I hit the lockup switch under full throttle and all hell broke loose. I lifted as soon as I felt something was going wrong, but as you can tell there was so much momentum that I had absolutely minimal control as to what the truck was gonna do. And the rest is history, I lost a nice truck in the process, scared a lot of people. So there, you have it straight from the man that was behind the wheel. My only intention of sharing this info was so that anyone could watch it and make up their own mind as to what they wanted to do. The track had a really sorry prep put on it that I feel was part of the problem. Now this is the last time I am going to post on this subject because it is turning into a crying, whiny assed pissing match. Jason, I could'nt care less what you and McRat think about any of this. If you don't want to put a cage in your truck's, that is really fine with me. However, I think you are in the minority here, and your truck is probably not fast enough to warrant a rolecage anyway. I am using my accident to help other's, take it for whatever is worth, and seriously I hope you never need one. Sincerely, Gary

 

[Mrs Shifter]

Let me say this real SLOW so that you will understand. I sat there trying to get the turbo's to light. I was having some timing issue's that I fought all day. I rolled on out of the light's with the intention's of lighting the charger's and get a feel for the truck. You gotta remember this is only the sixth pass on this truck, new everything, 4 link, timing, new slick's, the whole nine yards. The charger's finally lit just before the end of the concrete, I hit the lockup switch under full throttle and all hell broke loose. I lifted as soon as I felt something was going wrong, but as you can tell there was so much momentum that I had absolutely minimal control as to what the truck was gonna do. And the rest is history, I lost a nice truck in the process, scared a lot of people. So there, you have it straight from the man that was behind the wheel. My only intention of sharing this info was so that anyone could watch it and make up their own mind as to what they wanted to do. The track had a really sorry prep put on it that I feel was part of the problem. Now this is the last time I am going to post on this subject because it is turning into a crying, whiny assed pissing match. Jason, I could'nt care less what you and McRat think about any of this. If you don't want to put a cage in your truck's, that is really fine with me. However, I think you are in the minority here, and your truck is probably not fast enough to warrant a rolecage anyway. I am using my accident to help other's, take it for whatever is worth, and seriously I hope you never need one. Sincerely, Gary

:clap: If you don't get anything else out of what the man behind the wheel has to say, please re-read this post. I think I've pointed out his intent pretty clearly.

Hope you're feelin' a bit better Gary... no more scaring us please :thankyou2:

 

[JasonCzerak]

Let me say this real SLOW so that you will understand. I sat there trying to get the turbo's to light. I was having some timing issue's that I fought all day. I rolled on out of the light's with the intention's of lighting the charger's and get a feel for the truck. You gotta remember this is only the sixth pass on this truck, new everything, 4 link, timing, new slick's, the whole nine yards. The charger's finally lit just before the end of the concrete, I hit the lockup switch under full throttle and all hell broke loose. I lifted as soon as I felt something was going wrong, but as you can tell there was so much momentum that I had absolutely minimal control as to what the truck was gonna do. And the rest is history, I lost a nice truck in the process, scared a lot of people. So there, you have it straight from the man that was behind the wheel. My only intention of sharing this info was so that anyone could watch it and make up their own mind as to what they wanted to do. The track had a really sorry prep put on it that I feel was part of the problem. Now this is the last time I am going to post on this subject because it is turning into a crying, whiny assed pissing match. Jason, I could'nt care less what you and McRat think about any of this. If you don't want to put a cage in your truck's, that is really fine with me. However, I think you are in the minority here, and your truck is probably not fast enough to warrant a rolecage anyway. I am using my accident to help other's, take it for whatever is worth, and seriously I hope you never need one. Sincerely, Gary

Hmm, I suppose that'll have to do. If it was said in between all the "hope you are ok" posts, then I apologize. I hope you figure out hte traction issue with the next truck.

 

[Mike L.]

Gary, with all due respect, this was too much truck for you.

 

[Snedge]

It's a shame that a man can't step up to the plate, willingly or not, on an issue for the betterment of a sport without having to swat flies.
Race cars wreck. It happens. The pros even do it. Even die doing it !

Short wheel base
+ high torque
+ lock up converter
+ poor track conditions
= Whacked out ride for any driver
+ sufficient roll cage = Driver who can speak about experience.

Thats my math.
In the real world people are so different. Do what you will, but if trucks start rolling off the track, the NHRA will put a speed vs. weight formula together and limit what everyone is trying to do in diesel pickup drag racing. ( which is.. to make fat stuff go wicked fast )

 

[wrongway]

Gary, with all due respect, this was too much truck for you.

Mike, I beg to differ. I have as much capability as anyone running the setup I had. I did'nt have a lot of passes on this setup, so yea it was new to me. I drove the truck to a 7.01 @ 108 mph with leaf springs and ladder bar's spinning the whole 1/8 th mile and NEVER let it get out of shape. So, yes I can drive a truck like this. The track condition at best was ****ty, sand and leaves blowing on the track. Now I did'nt come here to get any sympathy, I'm merely giving you something to look at. Telling you as much as I can so noone else make's the same mistake. And Mike, I'm really surprised a man of your reputation would go out in a public forum and say something like this. Not that it matter's, but you don't know me, and you don't have a clue as to my driving skills. If this is the way this thread is going to continue, then I'm really done. Best of luck to all, and I hope you never post up anything to help like I did and get your ass handed to you. Kind of make's me sick for some of the comment's on here. I WILL be back in a different truck, so don't count me out just yet. Gary

 

[Snedge]

Mike, I beg to differ. I have as much capability as anyone running the setup I had. I did'nt have a lot of passes on this setup, so yea it was new to me. I drove the truck to a 7.01 @ 108 mph with leaf springs and ladder bar's spinning the whole 1/8 th mile and NEVER let it get out of shape. So, yes I can drive a truck like this. The track condition at best was ****ty, sand and leaves blowing on the track. Now I did'nt come here to get any sympathy, I'm merely giving you something to look at. Telling you as much as I can so noone else make's the same mistake. And Mike, I'm really surprised a man of your reputation would go out in a public forum and say something like this. Not that it matter's, but you don't know me, and you don't have a clue as to my driving skills. If this is the way this thread is going to continue, then I'm really done. Best of luck to all, and I hope you never post up anything to help like I did and get your ass handed to you. Kind of make's me sick for some of the comment's on here. I WILL be back in a different truck, so don't count me out just yet. Gary

:clap:

 

[cnsmoke]

Mike, I beg to differ. I have as much capability as anyone running the setup I had. I did'nt have a lot of passes on this setup, so yea it was new to me. I drove the truck to a 7.01 @ 108 mph with leaf springs and ladder bar's spinning the whole 1/8 th mile and NEVER let it get out of shape. So, yes I can drive a truck like this. The track condition at best was ****ty, sand and leaves blowing on the track. Now I did'nt come here to get any sympathy, I'm merely giving you something to look at. Telling you as much as I can so noone else make's the same mistake. And Mike, I'm really surprised a man of your reputation would go out in a public forum and say something like this. Not that it matter's, but you don't know me, and you don't have a clue as to my driving skills. If this is the way this thread is going to continue, then I'm really done. Best of luck to all, and I hope you never post up anything to help like I did and get your ass handed to you. Kind of make's me sick for some of the comment's on here. I WILL be back in a different truck, so don't count me out just yet. Gary

gary there are just alot of people that really don't understand racing,because if they did they would not be making this a pissing match on cages.. all you are doing is helping us by giving your input on the situation since you are one of the only ones to wreck a diesel truck on the track..i will say this gary,MYtruck will have safey equipment installed before it hits the track again..thanks for sharing gary..