In light of recent events.

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Well this is going to get us no where as there are a couple people not willing to open there eye's. They like to disagree with everything I say and that's fine but when others are coming up with similar numbers that show things need to be changed they still refuse to listen. Kind of like arguing with a 5 year old. So it's time to move past the argument and try to figure out how to go forward and learn what is really needed. Bring cars into a truck discussion is "horse pucky" as they say and it's not what were here to discuss in the first place. Matt has provided real numbers for a full cage, you can choose to believe them or not but its a good place to start. If he can do the same for a roll-bar rule then we have two places for each of you to figure out what you want to have. Sooner or later it's going to be forced upon us as racers anyway.
 
There appear to be good arguments here from all. And, yes, my thoughts may be a little biased, but I assure you, had you been there yourself, to watch a close friend go through the wall & take out a power pole, upside down!!! ...you too, would be reconsidering personal safety.
With those things in mind, these are my thoughts...
1. Wrongways truck went through the wall at 91mph, rolled, killed a pole with enough force to shear motormounts off the block. He & his 6 pont cage were 100% intact.
2. Lowering tire pressure for traction makes a vehicle that normally handles pritty well, handle very badly. (the shorter the wheelbase, the worse it gets)
3. Complacency is what you get after years of racing with no major accedents or injurys.
4. a 12sec pickup truck is a VERY fast truck! faster than 95% of the vehicles on any given highway. (Please refer back to #3)
5. A "one size fits all" rule is a bad plan when comparing apples to bananas.
In fact, theres so much diversity in diesel trucks, that it may be easier for the sanctioning bodies to simply regulate us till we give up, as opposed to fitting us all properly.. (what WILL happen if liability becomes a factor) ... So we MUST be safe. Is a basic roll cage on a low 12 sec truck overkill ??? Is that more than a budget racer can afford ? Thers a weld in 6 point kit for my 94 up Ram that can be bought for less than $400 (I'll post a link later) Compare that to the cost of a blown turbo / tranny/ headgasket repair, & I say if your gonna play, your gonna pay.
IMHO for less than a grand, you can play safe???? done deal.
Wrongway cured my Complacency & I am thankfull. My cage will be ordered shortly.
Wouldn't it be cool to be known as the safest class in dragracing ?
Should there be a rule change ? Maybe. I would vote for a 12.49 roll bar of some type, but thats just my thoughts. (not self serving, either, as my truck is tuned just above the current 11.49 cage rule. (I suddeny feel very stupid for not having a cage & allowing my son to race my truck!!!)
Maybe a rule change is not whats needed at all, perhaps tighter tech inspections with some type of driver qualification is in order, but that sounds like a BIG can of worms.
I dont know. I suggest making your truck as safe as you can stand, & align yourself with a diesel specific organization known for making good decisions.
(I applaud NHRDA's decision to pull out of the unsafe track last weekend.)
& above all, we must remember safety is what allows us to CONTINUE to have fun!
 
McRat said:
Many different things:

  • You cross the median, and hit a minivan head-on with a family of 5 on board.

    Hence the reason they have gaurd rails now, and if that fails, the next step is the seat belt, the i beams in the door, and the myriad of safety devices that have been developed when every driver less than the Mcrats occasionally wreck.
  • You go through the bridge guardrail and land in 18' of water upside down.
    It was my time, not sure how that has anything to do whatsoever with the discussion of race track safety until we start racing on race tracks they build over 18' of water.
  • You cross the centerline, through the guardrail and chainlink, and into the bleachers.
    I cannot protect every one at the track, nor can I predict what may happen if that were to occur. Watching a race can be dangerous too. This thread is about protecting the driver after the superior driving skills can do no more and your hands are on the roll cage not the wheel, if I remember correctly.

Most crashes happen for a reason. It's seldom caused by rollbars.
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This last one is totally incorrect. Most crashes happen for a bunch of reasons and normally not one is the causal factor, at some point they added up to more than what factors could prevent the crash. Again this is about how to protect the driver when the crash happens. Perhaps you can have a post about that, or perhaps you can start another thread.
 
you have just as good or better chance of getting injured idling around town as you do running 120 down a drag strip. so do you need a helmit and roll cage for driving the speed limit down the interstate? i guess so. a daily driven truck that will never see the track proly needs a roll cage and occupants need a helmit before a truck doing 120 130 down a track needs them just because the daily driver although only doing 70mph has a better chance of being in a accident than the race truck do to the greater amount of time it see's on the highway so i guess we all need roll cages and helmits stock or not.
 
There are two options open to us as diesel racers right now.

1. Continue as we have been and see someone get killed or maimed in a daily driven truck thats just a little to fast for the factory equipment installed. End result of which is no more diesel truck racing at NHRA tracks without a LOT of safety equipment we will have very little say in.

2. View this as the freakin wake up call it is and AS A COMMUNITY!!!!! figure out where we go from here safety wise. It's not going to be easy, we will be writing a rule book almost from scratch, BUT IT NEEDS TO BE DONE! If WE don't start the ball rolling ourselves, someone else will!




FWIW, I have made a total of two 1/4 mile passes in my life, I am not a racer, but there are so many folks who do race these trucks that I enjoy talking to I want to see them stick around a while longer.
 
One quick question - where is the 3600 lb limit in the NHRA rulebook? I'm not saying it isn't in there, but I didn't find it this morning during a quick glance through it.

I appreciate the use of math and science in the discussion, rather than emotion and innuendo. The kinetic energy calculations are effectively summarizing the effect of the vehicle striking another object (another vehicle or the guardrail). This is an important consideration, particularly regarding pairing of vehicles and strength of guardrails.

The other issue we need to be concerned with is protection of the driver of the subject vehicle. Damage to said driver can come from either rapid decelleration (impact), or from being physically crushed (temporary or permanent deflection of the driver's compartment). Neither of these are going to directly correlate with the kinetic energy calculations (although deflection will be somewhat related). The decelleration effect is going to be reduced by the mass of the vehicle. In other words, I would be much better off in the 7500 lb vehicle at 110.9 mph versus the 3600 lb vehicle at 160 mph. The guardrail will sustain similar damage, but my body will have been subjected to much lower peak decelleration values. I think the NHRA guidelines are sufficient with regard to decelleration-only injuries.

This leaves the deflection of the driver's compartment as an issue. I think I mentioned this a few weeks ago in a different thread. Someone could run some dynamic simulations, coupled with finite element analysis (FEA) of the cage structure, to determine appropriate levels of structure. My first-blush approach would be to simulate striking the wall at speed from various angles. One could also estimate the maximum height a vehicle could "catapult" given speed and guardrail geometry, and use that as the basis for rollover cage calculations. It's my observation that barrel rolls, while spectacular to watch, do relatively little cage damage.

All of this stuff was recently examined by NHRA, SFI, John Force Racing, and Ford. Maybe some of those consultants will be willing to work on this again for diesels?

Regards,
Michael Pliska
 
Michael said:
All of this stuff was recently examined by NHRA, SFI, John Force Racing, and Ford. Maybe some of those consultants will be willing to work on this again for diesels?

Regards,
Michael Pliska
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It sure would not hurt anybody to have this looked at. I think we can all agree on that.
 
grncummins said:
you have just as good or better chance of getting injured idling around town as you do running 120 down a drag strip. Not unless your talking paper cuts. so do you need a helmit and roll cage for driving the speed limit down the interstate? i guess so. a daily driven truck that will never see the track proly needs a roll cage and occupants need a helmit before a truck doing 120 130 down a track needs them just because the daily driver although only doing 70mph has a better chance of being in a accident than the race truck do to the greater amount of time it see's on the highway so i guess we all need roll cages and helmits stock or not.
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I respectfully disagree!

So a roll over at idle is going to place the same force as a roll over at 120?
 
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JQmile said:
Wall jumpers happen, although they will usually happen at tracks with metal guardrails that are a few years old...here's the one from the World Street Car Finals in Orlando......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ2ovdTp794
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Man that guy just can't drive, or maybe he forgot to do his 121-point inspection before that pass to make sure it was in top mechanical shape to make a run? Either way had he taken those precautionary steps and knew how to drive he wouldn't have needed that cage in there that allowed him to walk away.
 
Michael said:
All of this stuff was recently examined by NHRA, SFI, John Force Racing, and Ford. Maybe some of those consultants will be willing to work on this again for diesels?

Regards,
Michael Pliska
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I do not know if NHRA changed anything but John Force took it upon himself and changed the structure of all his cars. He was willing to give up a few hundred pounds and a bunch of money for the safety of his drivers and himself. He said he was going to do it no matter if NHRA changed or not. Anyone have any friends at Force's place, maybe they could direct us to the proper people.
 
Maybe we should ask Louis, since he and John are buddies and all:

force.jpg


did i mention that Louie sux? LOL
 
what mcrat is trying to say is that he is a proffessional racer and we are a bunch of novices and that he can handle any thing his truck might do that could be wrong and correct it before a crash happens and lets don't forget the almighty GM product that he races in comes preequipped with more safety equipment than all other inferior products that everybody else races. guys be real this is a dangerous sport and there have been people killed in it. one in particular that is recent is Eric Medlen. he had the safest equipment money can buy and what happened a tire failure on high mph rated tires and the unthinkable happened. if you won't safty equipment above and beyond the current requirments by all means get yourself some piece of mind. david dunbar is going to investigate what happened and there will be and extent of pictures taken of every angle of garys truck by the way gary had more rollcage than was required by the current rules. david will access all information and i'm sure make a statement of the findings. whether its driver error or track error or truck error accidents will happen. theres and old saying measure twice cut once its time to measure again.
 
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oh by the way thumper's math it don't lie you can't argue mathmatic facts without some other mathematical facts to counter with
 
quarterman said:
oh by the way thumper's math it don't lie you can't argue mathmatic facts without some other mathematical facts to counter with
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Head south and try to throw that mathematic mumbo jumbo at those back woods boys that know it all and they will be able to counter your facts with beer, foul language, talk of gubmint conspiracy, and some other toothless mumblings you can't understand and you will be the one that walks away confused as all get out...

LOL
 
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