Injectors

[12vdzl]

No Problem.

I'm gonna try and answer your question about he difference between inexpensive injectors in a supply-demand scenario.


Injectors that generally command a higher price in the marketplace, as with most products, generally have said price because of demand. Not to say that less-expensive injectors are inferior, but those that have higher prices are more well-known (brand recognition) and have proven themselves in many different vehicles/applications. You know as well as I do that there are very few places that actually "do" injectors. Could I call one of these places and start private labeling injectors? Possibly, but my injectors, being unproven would not command the same price as those that have been around. This is also commonly referred to as supply and demand. Simply put, the demand on "brand x" injectors will dictate the price. Higher demand will push prices up and lower demand will result in the opposite.

One of the factors that can have an effect on demand other than performance of the injectors can be advertising(marketing.) Name recognition plays a major role in the choices made by consumers. While a lesser-known product may be on the same playing field as a more well known product, without proper marketing, the market will not show the same value because of the lack of popularity among consumers.

Thank you, for your help. While i already knew this (still greatly appreciated) i was looking more towards what makes F1,DDP and others sooo much more special than brand x. I didn't know if they (F1,DDP) made their own parts for the insides of the injector, as well as the tips or if they still out-source the work. The question that really intrigues me is, where do they get their tips EDM'd at? While i already know this will not be answered. There is an EDM shop located in my little town in MI, that's the only reason it's intriguing to me!

Thanks again:Cheer:

 

[HOLYSMOKES]

Curtis, I think if you were able to to see where the EDM machines have been sold to, I think you would find that there are something like 4 or 5 machines here in the us. ( something like that) Now look at who sells injectors. 1000's of companies.
F1 MIGHT actually make his own and Bosh has their machine...seen how quick it dwindles down.....

 

[12vdzl]

Curtis, I think if you were able to to see where the EDM machines have been sold to, I think you would find that there are something like 4 or 5 machines here in the us. ( something like that) Now look at who sells injectors. 1000's of companies.
F1 MIGHT actually make his own and Bosh has their machine...seen how quick it dwindles down.....

Yes sir...... :Cheer: I didn't know if there was a specific EDM machine to do injector tips, or if you could have a base EDM Mach. model that will do anything as well as injector tips (all with proper tooling).

I guess i'm getting too deep into this thread, curiosity got the best of me.

From now on i'll just buy from who i trust, either DDP, F1 or new-era diesel. you get the top names to choose from as well as the main man around here chuck!!!!

Thanks Smokes!

Curtis

 

[Timbeaux]

Thank you, for your help. While i already knew this (still greatly appreciated) i was looking more towards what makes F1,DDP and others sooo much more special than brand x. I didn't know if they (F1,DDP) made their own parts for the insides of the injector, as well as the tips or if they still out-source the work. The question that really intrigues me is, where do they get their tips EDM'd at? While i already know this will not be answered. There is an EDM shop located in my little town in MI, that's the only reason it's intriguing to me!

Thanks again:Cheer:

I know this shop you speak of in MI. John is a super guy. As far as who does who's tips, I coudn't say. But If you know, PM me the info.

 

[pro99]

They'd tell me to fly a kite, pretty much what you just did. Is it such a problem that people know the differences between the In-expensive injectors and the more-expensive injectors ????

I would not tell you that:hehe: :hehe: :hehe:

 

[12vdzl]

I know this shop you speak of in MI. John is a super guy. As far as who does who's tips, I coudn't say. But If you know, PM me the info.

I wish i knew! but unfortunately i dont

Thanks bud:thankyou2:

Pro99i realize everyone has to stay neutral, and not break (or jeaprodize sp?) any ties in situations like this. No problem!!

 

[pro99]

I wish i knew! but unfortunately i dont

Thanks bud:thankyou2:

Pro99i realize everyone has to stay neutral, and not break (or jeaprodize sp?) any ties in situations like this. No problem!!

You can call me Chaz:hehe: LOL

It's hard to keep things in a wrap because when all info goes out then its a free for all:bang

 

[12vdzl]

You can call me Chaz:hehe: LOL

It's hard to keep things in a wrap because when all info goes out then its a free for all:bang

I understand that, no problem!!:bow: :st:

 

[Babyfat]

just thought I would say HI to ya all, let ya know I'm still around :rockwoot:

 

[12vdzl]

just thought I would say HI to ya all, let ya know I'm still around :rockwoot:

Good thing!!! We would only have Chaz to pick on if you didn't come back! *bdh*

 

[WorkhorseDiesel]

Hmmm, I thought I'd add a little info on the F1's, seeing that there is a lot of people curious about who does what for whom.

In the beginning, Formula 1 started by using Computational Fluid Dynamics software to develop CAD designs that became the foundation on which the first 7 sets of prototype EDM injectors were based. Using contract shops to do their EDM work, they quickly found that most EDM shops could not get their specifications within the tight tolerances they were requesting. So, they decided to purchase their own EDM machine which would give them the flexibility to keep the very tight tolerances required and at the same time they could adjust and experiment with new designs. Over 150 designs and configurations were considered and over 200 dyno runs were performed during the development of the Mach series injectors. As far as what makes an F1 Mach series injector, they start with a stock Bosch injector core and a BLANK nozzle designed of special heat-treated steel alloy that is precision ground. None of the nozzles used in their EDM injectors are stock bosch parts. What sets them apart is the design and configuration of the nozzle. The spray patterns, hole size, number of holes, intricate spray angles and HOW these all work together to produce low engine speed air/fuel mixing, more power, and less smoke is key to their performance. And, it's all done in-house. To simply say that most places send out for EDM nozzles is a pretty big stretch. When someone's doing the R&D, dyno testing new designs, using the same EDM machine to hold the precision tolerances from set to set, and keeping the quality control in-house, it's a pretty big difference. One example is when F1 sent the first 7 sets of injectors off to be EDM'd by contract shops across the country. Only 1 out of the 7 sets was within the tight tolerance specifications that they requested. It's also why you can't simply buy EDM injectors and expect them to all perform the same. There are differences between them all. Hope this helps to answer some questions.


Oh, and I'm not a dealer or affiliated in any way, but I am a firm believer that a company that puts time into a quality product should be recognized for their efforts.

 

[troutstrannysvc]

Hmmm, I thought I'd add a little info on the F1's, seeing that there is a lot of people curious about who does what for whom.

In the beginning, Formula 1 started by using Computational Fluid Dynamics software to develop CAD designs that became the foundation on which the first 7 sets of prototype EDM injectors were based. Using contract shops to do their EDM work, they quickly found that most EDM shops could not get their specifications within the tight tolerances they were requesting. So, they decided to purchase their own EDM machine which would give them the flexibility to keep the very tight tolerances required and at the same time they could adjust and experiment with new designs. Over 150 designs and configurations were considered and over 200 dyno runs were performed during the development of the Mach series injectors. As far as what makes an F1 Mach series injector, they start with a stock Bosch injector core and a BLANK nozzle designed of special heat-treated steel alloy that is precision ground. None of the nozzles used in their EDM injectors are stock bosch parts. What sets them apart is the design and configuration of the nozzle. The spray patterns, hole size, number of holes, intricate spray angles and HOW these all work together to produce low engine speed air/fuel mixing, more power, and less smoke is key to their performance. And, it's all done in-house. To simply say that most places send out for EDM nozzles is a pretty big stretch. When someone's doing the R&D, dyno testing new designs, using the same EDM machine to hold the precision tolerances from set to set, and keeping the quality control in-house, it's a pretty big difference. One example is when F1 sent the first 7 sets of injectors off to be EDM'd by contract shops across the country. Only 1 out of the 7 sets was within the tight tolerance specifications that they requested. It's also why you can't simply buy EDM injectors and expect them to all perform the same. There are differences between them all. Hope this helps to answer some questions.


Oh, and I'm not a dealer or affiliated in any way, but I am a firm believer that a company that puts time into a quality product should be recognized for their efforts.

Thank you for this information.
IT made for a good read!

 

[RollinWide]

whats this i heard u can put 300hp cat injectors in a 12v

 

[ford69557ci]

There are alot more than 5 or so edm machines in the us just not everybody with one does injectors. I was actually thinkin about purchasing one a cnc version can be had used for under 30k. As much as I like to change parts and screw around I think buyin a 30k machine might be cheaper in the long run.

 

[12vdzl]

Hmmm, I thought I'd add a little info on the F1's, seeing that there is a lot of people curious about who does what for whom.

In the beginning, Formula 1 started by using Computational Fluid Dynamics software to develop CAD designs that became the foundation on which the first 7 sets of prototype EDM injectors were based. Using contract shops to do their EDM work, they quickly found that most EDM shops could not get their specifications within the tight tolerances they were requesting. So, they decided to purchase their own EDM machine which would give them the flexibility to keep the very tight tolerances required and at the same time they could adjust and experiment with new designs. Over 150 designs and configurations were considered and over 200 dyno runs were performed during the development of the Mach series injectors. As far as what makes an F1 Mach series injector, they start with a stock Bosch injector core and a BLANK nozzle designed of special heat-treated steel alloy that is precision ground. None of the nozzles used in their EDM injectors are stock bosch parts. What sets them apart is the design and configuration of the nozzle. The spray patterns, hole size, number of holes, intricate spray angles and HOW these all work together to produce low engine speed air/fuel mixing, more power, and less smoke is key to their performance. And, it's all done in-house. To simply say that most places send out for EDM nozzles is a pretty big stretch. When someone's doing the R&D, dyno testing new designs, using the same EDM machine to hold the precision tolerances from set to set, and keeping the quality control in-house, it's a pretty big difference. One example is when F1 sent the first 7 sets of injectors off to be EDM'd by contract shops across the country. Only 1 out of the 7 sets was within the tight tolerance specifications that they requested. It's also why you can't simply buy EDM injectors and expect them to all perform the same. There are differences between them all. Hope this helps to answer some questions.


Oh, and I'm not a dealer or affiliated in any way, but I am a firm believer that a company that puts time into a quality product should be recognized for their efforts.

Thank you for the info. If for sure it's all true, that is exactly the info i was looking for. Their price is now easily justified, with their big name, and keeping EVERYTHING in house!!! I like, just can't afford.:bang

Thanks again!
Curtis

 

[Lenny]

Dynomite starts with OEM parts. Our media bill alone is like 3g a month plus wages to actually run the hone. Why do they cost so much? Well simple actually. We buy parts get them to the recipie ordered.Sell to a Warehouse then to a dealer then to a consumer. Everyone in line is in buisness to make money to pay their own bills. So they have markup. Sure if DDP could network across northamerica,answer all the teck,sell to only consumers,not offer any warranty,only dyno each product once things could be cheaper and probably more profitable. Just not very practicle. Although we try to keep things inline with competion it all adds up to retail. And no John L does not EDM for me. But I do like John and did try some stuff with him back in 03 04.
And I belive Don M does his own EDM.

Lenny

 

[Beave]

i was wondering if you were going to make a post lenny about ur injectors.

 

[carfichris]

Probably the most straightforward scoop on Injectors you will find anywhere online thus far right there.

I am in a fortunate situation where I have a lab full of test equipment that has allowed me to look at many injectors over the years. These have come from various shops big and small and even some from Bosch. Knowing the direct source's (regardless of name brand) or more plainly put "the man behind the machine" in each case when you scrutinize them on this level, which understandably most can never do, the phrase "you get what you pay for" really shows. The more time the people building the injector's have invested improving their machining process's and various "recipe's" to the point of perfection becomes clear when you take a 0.008" hole and blow it up to the size of a silver dollar. Ive seen actual hole area's within the same nozzle and one injector nozzle to another in the same set vary by huge amounts. It really is more than just buying a machine, reworking the tips and knowing where the UPS store is.

 

[12vdzl]

Dynomite starts with OEM parts. Our media bill alone is like 3g a month plus wages to actually run the hone. Why do they cost so much? Well simple actually. We buy parts get them to the recipie ordered.Sell to a Warehouse then to a dealer then to a consumer. Everyone in line is in buisness to make money to pay their own bills. So they have markup. Sure if DDP could network across northamerica,answer all the teck,sell to only consumers,not offer any warranty,only dyno each product once things could be cheaper and probably more profitable. Just not very practicle. Although we try to keep things inline with competion it all adds up to retail. And no John L does not EDM for me. But I do like John and did try some stuff with him back in 03 04.
And I belive Don M does his own EDM.

Lenny

Thank you for your time to inform us "the general public" of what really goes on behind the scenes of all the middle men!

It is too bad that you (as well as F1) cannot sell directly to the consumer. I realize the need for middle men, but it this simple Problem (as i see it) that keeps me (as well as others) from buying such quality that yourself and F1 make. Without having a high paying job, nor the resources to just drop 6 to 700 dollars ( or even more :doh on injectors alone, i will have to just keep DDP injectors on my wish-list for some other day!

Again i thank you, and i do not intend my reply to come across as a bash towards DDP, nor F1.

Have a good 'un!