Oil Sample Results

Timebomb

Timebomb

Bootney Lee Fonsworth
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
2,069
So I just recieved this E-Mail. Anyone feel free to fill me in on the good and bad. I dont know much about the results other then the little they said.


Sample Reports
 
I don't know how to read them either. Mind if I post my race engine sample?
 
Go right ahead, All my specs as far as milage on engine and what oil used and all that are on sample report.
 
Sweet!

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I pulled it apart and saw it scuffed #6 piston skirt/wall. Everything else looks good. I think the copper is from the two thrust bearings that have went through this oil.
 
Well, I'm no oil analysis expert nor do I play one on TV. So, you can take this as my opinion and with a grain of salt. :)

First, I have to disagree that 15ppm is normal. Anything in the double digits for silicon really signals poor air filtration in my opinion. I've never gone over 4ppm in silicon, and that included extended drain intervals with a trip to Moab.. If that moab red dirt didn't get in, nothing else should. Now, Silicon can also signify a coolant leak, but that is probably much less likely, and the potassium levels would say more about that.

That is a lot of molydbenum. Did you put an additive in the oil? What oil was it? Seems pretty high for a standard off the shelf oil.

30ppm iron is a little high for a cummins (the powerstroke and duramax guys usually have a lot more for some reason), but it isn't a red flag by any means.. Especially considering the miles on the truck. Copper is also a little higher than usual. Sometimes, that can be a signal that an oil cooler is leaching.. But, once again, I certainly wouldn't consider it a red flag by any means.

TBN was also pretty high, which tells me that you are either using a heck of a good oil, or you may have tossed in an additive to the mix. Are you running any bypass filtration, or just the standard oil filter? Looking at the particle count, you could use a little better oil filtration.. Basically, it looks like the filter is filtering down to about 20um, which is GOOD for a full flow filter.. However, a good bypass filter could get those particle count numbers in the 15-20um range down considerably. Don't read too far into that.. For the year and the miles on the engine, those numbers are just fine!


There are people out there that look at these things for a living, and could tell you a million times more than I can.. I don't see anything that would concern me by any means. That oil has a LOT of life left in it, especially if you didn't use any additives. Try a 8,000 mile oil change interval next time, and resample.
 
Joe:

CRAZY numbers. Did you decide to tear it down because of the oil analysis, or other factors?

Looking at the silicon numbers, I would think air filtration failed. My first thought. It could also mean you had a ton of coolant dumped into the oil. Going with the first thought, that silicon got in EVERYWHERE.. including under bearings. Any time you get a particle like silicon floating around in the oil, it has the potential to work it's way in a bearing and cause a "streak." Basically, the particle gets stuck in the bearing and digs in.. Causing the iron and copper levels to go out of control.

Having that much dirt floating around in oil that was extremely thin because of the oil was a major issue. Probably the biggest cause of the damage.

No TBN and no particle count makes it really hard to judge much further. I'm betting the TBN was really low, and the particle count was really high.. Particles were probably both silicon (dirt) and metals (iron especially).

Just out of curiosity, how did the headgasket look? Any coolant in the oil at all? That would explain a lot of the damage.. Something big changed between your first few samples and that one.. Either air filtration failed, or coolant made it to the oil. Just my humble opinion. :)
 
The oil I used was off the shelf Valvoline 15/40 with no addatives, Filter used was a Mopar brand filter with the 4,850 miles on it (same as the oil). This oil also had about 20 dyno runs on it as well as quit a few blasts down the road.
 
MD-LUCKY said:
Joe:

CRAZY numbers. Did you decide to tear it down because of the oil analysis, or other factors?

Looking at the silicon numbers, I would think air filtration failed. My first thought. It could also mean you had a ton of coolant dumped into the oil. Going with the first thought, that silicon got in EVERYWHERE.. including under bearings. Any time you get a particle like silicon floating around in the oil, it has the potential to work it's way in a bearing and cause a "streak." Basically, the particle gets stuck in the bearing and digs in.. Causing the iron and copper levels to go out of control.

Having that much dirt floating around in oil that was extremely thin because of the oil was a major issue. Probably the biggest cause of the damage.

No TBN and no particle count makes it really hard to judge much further. I'm betting the TBN was really low, and the particle count was really high.. Particles were probably both silicon (dirt) and metals (iron especially).

Just out of curiosity, how did the headgasket look? Any coolant in the oil at all? That would explain a lot of the damage.. Something big changed between your first few samples and that one.. Either air filtration failed, or coolant made it to the oil. Just my humble opinion. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the more indepth analysis. That was my race engine in the s-10. I ran turbo #5 through it at the finals in Bowling Green and knew it was hurt bad. I shut it off at the 1000' mark and coasted to a 11.31@136. There are still chunks of compressor wheel between the valve seat and valve in the head. Also there were aluminum bb's that re-solidified on top of the pistons because it got shutdown ASAP.

I have no filtration, just window screen to keep the rocks out. LOL The rods and mains look perfect, I have no copper showing on them. I think the copper is from the sheer number of turbo thrust bearings that went through it.

The iron/aluminum is from #6. It got too hot and stuck ~1" diameter of the skirt to the cylinder wall. There's more aluminum on the wall than there is iron on the piston so the sacrifice of one piston is okay with me.

Headgasket looked ok, 2 leaks from compression to water and 1 leak from compression to oil. No mixing between the two and nothing antifreeze showed up in the oil. Overall pretty good from what it could have been. I would guess the lead from the bearings is related to the 7.0% fuel in the crankcase.
 
joefarmer said:
Thanks for the more indepth analysis. That was my race engine in the s-10. I ran turbo #5 through it at the finals in Bowling Green and knew it was hurt bad. I shut it off at the 1000' mark and coasted to a 11.31@136. There are still chunks of compressor wheel between the valve seat and valve in the head. Also there were aluminum bb's that re-solidified on top of the pistons because it got shutdown ASAP.

I have no filtration, just window screen to keep the rocks out. LOL The rods and mains look perfect, I have no copper showing on them. I think the copper is from the sheer number of turbo thrust bearings that went through it.

The iron/aluminum is from #6. It got too hot and stuck ~1" diameter of the skirt to the cylinder wall. There's more aluminum on the wall than there is iron on the piston so the sacrifice of one piston is okay with me.

Headgasket looked ok, 2 leaks from compression to water and 1 leak from compression to oil. No mixing between the two and nothing antifreeze showed up in the oil. Overall pretty good from what it could have been. I would guess the lead from the bearings is related to the 7.0% fuel in the crankcase.
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Okay, wow. If you injested a turbo, take back everything I said above.. lol. I thought you just decided to tear it down for the heck of it.. But that explains everything.


The particle streaks would be almost impossible to see with the naked eye. We are talking a particle probably in the 60-120um range (a human hair is around 80um I think), so it would be really hard to see the bearing damage without putting it under a microscope. It is amazing how a little particle can cause all of those ppm numbers to spike. Since the turbo failed, most of those numbers weren't caused by bad air filtration.. Just chunks of turbo.

Still neat to see an oil analysis after such a catostrophic failure. Everything looked pretty good right up to that point. That much damage is really too bad.. I feel for you. Hopefully you have figured out the turbo issue and don't have any more problems in the future. :)
 
I ordered an oil analysis kit from blackstone. I just rebuilt my engine and want to see if everything is working together ok inside my new mill.
 
MD-LUCKY said:
Okay, wow. If you injested a turbo, take back everything I said above.. lol. I thought you just decided to tear it down for the heck of it.. But that explains everything.


The particle streaks would be almost impossible to see with the naked eye. We are talking a particle probably in the 60-120um range (a human hair is around 80um I think), so it would be really hard to see the bearing damage without putting it under a microscope. It is amazing how a little particle can cause all of those ppm numbers to spike. Since the turbo failed, most of those numbers weren't caused by bad air filtration.. Just chunks of turbo.

Still neat to see an oil analysis after such a catostrophic failure. Everything looked pretty good right up to that point. That much damage is really too bad.. I feel for you. Hopefully you have figured out the turbo issue and don't have any more problems in the future. :)
Click to expand...

I think Brandon likes blowing up turbos.

The shirt I got from him says
"Firepunk.com, where men are men and turbos run scared"

Wore it yesterday BTW. I went out in the truck and felt like blowing something up in it.
 
what kind of oil additive are you running Brandon? Your zinc level seems pretty high?
 
tony597fitter said:
I think Brandon likes blowing up turbos.

The shirt I got from him says
"Firepunk.com, where men are men and turbos run scared"

Wore it yesterday BTW. I went out in the truck and felt like blowing something up in it.
Click to expand...

I'll admit that! I thought I had the wastegate tuned this time. It went ~15 passes and a bunch of quick hits testing. I got greedy and didn't retune the wastegate for the second stage of nitrous. I knew I was on the edge, I didn't know just how close.

Willy91 said:
what kind of oil additive are you running Brandon? Your zinc level seems pretty high?
Click to expand...

Don's F1 Diesel ZDDP cam additive. 1qt additive and 7qt Castrol.


Timebomb, I'd consider going to an AEM dryflow filter. I switched from AFE oiled to a AEM dryflow and you can see the silicon drop from 35 to 8ppm.
 
joefarmer said:
Timebomb, I'd consider going to an AEM dryflow filter. I switched from AFE oiled to a AEM dryflow and you can see the silicon drop from 35 to 8ppm.
Click to expand...


I think my first step will be cleaning it more then once a year... Its got like birds,bugs and chit in it...LOL

Ill see if AEM has a filter that will work.
 
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