performance injectors that don't smoke

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parkland

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Hi guys, I know it's a stretch posting this question here... but here goes.

I have a dt360 engine, and looking for an f350 right now to put it in.
I know it's not a cummins, but heck there really isn't any info laying around for the dt360 as there is the 5.9 cummins.
Now the dt360 might not be a 5.9 cummins, but it has an inline injection pump, delivery valves, and similar injectors, I do believe. At least the 94-98 cummins. Also same displacement, although different bore/stroke.

What I want to do, is get a 2nd inline fuel pump, possibly a p7100, and belt drive it from the front of the engine. I want to connect the throttle from both pumps to a small draw bar, so that the 2nd pump doesn't push fuel until the primary pump is wide open.
This is in hopes, that the engine will run nice, and idle, and be drivable without massive smoke or haze.

So i hear my stock injectors aren't much good past about 250 hp, but I don't want to buy some shower head smokey bastards either... I want to keep it clean running and drivable. Right now, there is zero haze at idle.

I hear more holes, but same size nozzles, is the way to go for a clean burn. Does this make good sense?

Because I plan on having 2 pumps, the timing could easily be different between the 2. If I put the stock pump at 25* or so, and the 2nd pump at 10* or so, is that even going to push more fuel, or will the injection pulse just over lap, and not flow any more than normal?

And then theres the question about injector lines; Run a 2nd set of lines, so each pump has it's own lines, and then have check valves and a "T" on the injectors, or else, just "T" the injection pumps and use the single set of lines... but then not be able to slow as much fuel.

I'm not wanting to go insane on power, maybe 400 hp, maybe 600, it just seems like a dual pump setup might actually be pretty cheap, and keep the truck idling and running pretty much stock, until the 2nd half of the throttle when the 2nd pump kicks in.

It would be cool, to have 2 pumps, and be able to move fuel quick enough that there is actually 2 distinct injection events, but I can't see how that could happen without major tinkering and expensive parts, and probably end up a smokey embarassment.

So, what would be some things to do to a PLN fuel system, that will help the fuel move a little quicker, yet burn just as good as stock?

Raise pop pressure, and do delivery valve cutting? Will that make it idle like crap?

Is there any magic to running bigger injection lines, and still idling and running nice?

Also, I don't plan on doing much RPM modifications, 3000 RPM is plenty for a daily driver.


Not sure really what power goals are, whatever it ends up being, trying to get 2x the fuel shot in, and more turbo. Call me cheap, but the 6.4 ford I buy for the swap might donate it's turbo to the side of the dt360. See how that works for a while. There was an 08 busted crankshaft f350 for 3000$, but the ol' lady wants a full 4 door, and this was only the extended cab 4 door.
 
Get a good 12mm P7100, and a 5-hole Stanadyne injector, the nozzles and holders are easy to find and rather inexpensive.
 
Seems like a ton of work and time...I understand thinking outside the box and good on you! Couldn't you just max out the stock in-line pump already or just playing around w/ an idea?
 
Gambler said:
Seems like a ton of work and time...I understand thinking outside the box and good on you! Couldn't you just max out the stock in-line pump already or just playing around w/ an idea?
Click to expand...

I don't want to max out the stock pump for a couple reasons.
It runs good, idles good, and no smoke or haze.
If I do the delivery valves, fuel mileage could decrease.

If I put a 2nd pump in, I CAN do delivery valves, as long as the 2nd pump is the farther advanced pump, because the stock pump delivery valves will still let the pressure out of the lines, thus eliminating the possible issues with cut delivery valves.

I don't even know what the dt360 has for stock injectors as far as hole size, but I'm thinking to get more holes of the same size, and hopefully that will allow fuel to flow a little quicker, so the added pump can get the injection cycle done quicker, allowing the factory pump to still push fuel.

I read somewhere that the fuel injection lasts about 30* at full throttle.

If the added fuel pump is set to earlier timing, when it fires, it should actually keep the injector line pressure higher than stock, meaning even the stock pump should put more fuel out without any modification.

I think this will work, and I dont think it will take rocket appliances to make it go.
 
Sorry, to clarify, if the injectors flowed better, between the 2 injections, the flow might last 40*, but more fuel than the original setup.

And about the added pump working with the original pump's delivery valves, that would only work if the pumps are "T"'d together at the pumps, not the injectors. Otherwise, a 2nd set of lines would add more volume and the original pump's delivery valves wouldn't relive enough pressure.

Even if T'd at the pumps, there still exists a chance for the injector to dribble, between the 1st and 2nd injection, at lower throttle output. At high throttle, the injections would run into each other and become 1 long injection.

I definately see how this setup has drawbacks, especially at high RPM, but for what I want, normal day to day use, I think it will work really well.
Should allow a crap ton of fuel at low RPM's, so with a VVT turbo, this thing could lug really hard and put out big time where it counts.
 
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Gambler said:
I take it you pull quite heavy?
Click to expand...


Actually I don't, but I also don't want to have a machine that needs to rev high just to make power.
Just thinking of ways to make it run strong.
It wouldn't bother me if it fuels harder at 2000 RPM than it does at 3000 RPM.

My goal isn't to race and beat people, it's to have a truck I enjoy, and also enjoy the building process.
I got my engine totally seperated from the bus, except for the 4 bolts on the engine mounts and transmission.

Still deciding if I should put a rebuilt kit in it, or wait. It seems to run 100%.
 
Maybe a little, but I haven't been around that engine dt360. when you were talking about the power coming in early, I figured you did. How many pulling tractors use a dt360?
 
Gambler said:
Maybe a little, but I haven't been around that engine dt360. when you were talking about the power coming in early, I figured you did. How many pulling tractors use a dt360?
Click to expand...

Not too many, I don't think.

The reason for the early power, is that from what I've learned so far, these mechanical pumps have lots of potential to move fuel at lower RPM's than higher RPM's.
 
The reason I ask, is to inquire w/ them a little. have you been to the tractor area on the site?
 
You want something reliable, economical, 4-600 hp, and inexpensive to build?

What you are wanting to build sounds like a nightmare to tune and definitely does not sound like something that will be reliable, nor does it sound economical in the fuel mileage department.

I love the outside of the box thinking but you can wish in one hand and chit in the other. Tell me which one fills up faster. Just saying by the time you get an adapter plate for the tranny (that is if you want to run the ford tranny), buy a p7100, buy all of the misc pieces (belt, mounts, linkage, injectors, etc...), turbo, and injection lines you can easily buy a cummins and make it everything you want other than a heavy dt360. I am all for a custom project like you are wanting to do but your requirements include a mechanical engine that needs swapped into a truck it never came in with two injection pumps that idles nice, gets ok fuel mileage and doesn't smoke.

Here is some reading in the mean time:

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62615
 
in hydraulics, a case drain is the line that allows leakage past the pump or motor gears to return to the reservoir. if you plug or kink that case drain line, pressure builds up in the case and changes the pressure differential across the two working ports which does some funky things.

i am no expert here, but my expectation is that pressure from one pump will do some unexpected things to the valving system within the other pump. one pumps delivery valves may have to overcome a pretty high initial pressure left in the line from the other.


if im not mistaken, the DT360 ran a bosch MW pump when configured as inline. the DT466 also ran an MW or a P7100 from 93-95. that makes me fairly confident that your 366 could have a p-pump bolted on. if thats possible i dont see why you couldnt get your end result with a ppump swap. have you priced the cost of custom industrial injection lines? theyre outrageous. i cant even imagine what a custom TEE fitting for each line would cost.

furthermore, i cant imagine getting a pair of pumps to clear the brake booster on any 1 ton. maybe you can but it sounds like a great chance to experience the sinking feeling that the pump linkage or idle screw cant be accessed without lifting the engine or something crazy like that. ive abandoned a sad number of projects that sounded great on paper while my friends were out having fun with their simple recipes that went together in a month. thats not who you wanna be.
 
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Excellent points. For sure.

"in hydraulics, a case drain is the line that allows leakage past the pump or motor gears to return to the reservoir. if you plug or kink that case drain line, pressure builds up in the case and changes the pressure differential across the two working ports which does some funky things. "

In the fuel system, this would be the delivery valves.

"i am no expert here, but my expectation is that pressure from one pump will do some unexpected things to the valving system within the other pump. one pumps delivery valves may have to overcome a pretty high initial pressure left in the line from the other. "

This is absolutely true. If the stock pump is left 100% stock, but set to 10* timing, and the second is set to 25* timing, and has the deliver valves cut shoulders, it won't relieve pressure out of the lines, so the original pump should actually push more fuel, because it doesn't have to re-pressurize the lines. But since the original pump at 10* still has delivery valves functioning, there shouldn't be dribble after it's injection. The issue here is how to flow more fuel than stock, while maintaining a clean burn. More injector holes, same pop pressure?


"if im not mistaken, the DT360 ran a bosch MW pump when configured as inline. the DT466 also ran an MW or a P7100 from 93-95. that makes me fairly confident that your 366 could have a p-pump bolted on. if thats possible i dont see why you couldnt get your end result with a ppump swap. have you priced the cost of custom industrial injection lines? theyre outrageous. i cant even imagine what a custom TEE fitting for each line would cost. "

The lines aren't actually bad at all, but I want to see what it will do with the stock ones before buying other ones. IIRC, hypermax had lines for 600$ that support 1000 hp.

"furthermore, i cant imagine getting a pair of pumps to clear the brake booster on any 1 ton. maybe you can but it sounds like a great chance to experience the sinking feeling that the pump linkage or idle screw cant be accessed without lifting the engine or something crazy like that. ive abandoned a sad number of projects that sounded great on paper while my friends were out having fun with their simple recipes that went together in a month. thats not who you wanna be."

Ahh yes, the pain one takes on to accomplish a project like this. I'm no stranger to this. I have a diesel 4x4 side by side go kart, finally almost finished. I started building it, when friends ran out and bought rhino's, RZR's and other off the shelf machines. While it was a cool idea, and should be pretty nice when done, I've spend a couple years already, working on it in my spare time. Although it's been more fun, and less of a priority to get finished.
 
zfaylor said:
You want something reliable, economical, 4-600 hp, and inexpensive to build?

What you are wanting to build sounds like a nightmare to tune and definitely does not sound like something that will be reliable, nor does it sound economical in the fuel mileage department.

I love the outside of the box thinking but you can wish in one hand and chit in the other. Tell me which one fills up faster. Just saying by the time you get an adapter plate for the tranny (that is if you want to run the ford tranny), buy a p7100, buy all of the misc pieces (belt, mounts, linkage, injectors, etc...), turbo, and injection lines you can easily buy a cummins and make it everything you want other than a heavy dt360. I am all for a custom project like you are wanting to do but your requirements include a mechanical engine that needs swapped into a truck it never came in with two injection pumps that idles nice, gets ok fuel mileage and doesn't smoke.

Here is some reading in the mean time:

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62615
Click to expand...


I think I've read about all a guy can, lol.
Why can't an engine be fuel effecient and have good economy? I'm sure they can, just a matter of how you get it running.

I'm not using an adapter plate, looking for a 6plus manual transmission, and looking to find low gearing, so highway RPM's are lower than normal. Just tow in 5th instead of 6th.

Transfer case? Maybe an SCS one, sure it's 2500$, but it's brand new and indestructible.

Not running a p7100, just the stock pump, and a 2nd stock pump, possibly modded a tiny bit. Looks like the lines to connect the 2 are 500-1000$ ish. The 2nd pump looks to cost about 500$ for a rebuild, plus cog belt drive.

The turbo's I was thinking a he351ve from a newer cummins, with a detroit diesel series 60 s400 turbo, mounted under the truck.
About 1400$ for those 2 units, it looks like.
The he351ve should make it easier to control the air, I'll use springs and air actuator pistons, they are cheap.

I'll put the batteries under the truck, to make extra room under the hood. The s400 turbo under the truck will also save a lot of room under the hood.
Maybe I'll also put the air filter / intake under the truck, or in the box.

I don't see why it wouldn't idle perfect, if the idle on one pump is way higher or lower than the other, because only 1 pump will push fuel at idle. Ideally both would, to make it run quieter, but at least as a backup, running on 1 only, should idle perfect. The Lines connecting the pumps don't have much volume, so it shouldn't lope like engine with giant injection lines.

Theres obviously a lot of thinking out loud here, feel free to let me know if you think i'm Chitting too much in one hand lol.

I already bought a but with the dt360, and it's almost ready to pull out, so this IS happening lol.
 
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