Towing compounds question

[alienturtle]

Iv been running my 12v for quite a few years with below specs. I use my truck to tow a 40 foot gooseneck race trailer and daily drive. I have the cab and suspension off the truck doing a 4 link setup with king coilovers. (this is in a f350). I really dont have too many complaints with the setup. Just looking to improve if possible while its apart. I have a hx35 secondary and ht3b primary. The ht3b has a 26cm exhause housing. Im running a tial external wastegate. My question is. Would doing a hx35 40 hybrid be an improvement? I really dont want to have to change any hot side piping so i thought the hybrid might be a good option? If so where would you buy the wheel and compressor housing. Im a machinist so i can machine what ever is needed. Thanks.

Hx35 over ht3b compounds with external wastegate
Pretty stock p pump at 15 degree timing
Cpp 7x10 maybe 12 injectors
Hamilton towing cam
O ring head
Arp head studs
The intake has been milled off the head and a custom intake with water to air intercooler built
Nv5600 trans
Southbend street duel disk
Airdog fuel pump

 

[Vincejax]

I gotta ask..why the A2W intercooler and shelf milled off the head with such a mild fuel and air setup? I think for a daily driving street driven truck you are giving up efficiency with that cooler, unless you are constantly reloading it with ice...

 

[gman99]

Considering you have an external gate to relieve back pressure and the ht3b to do the heavy lifting airflow wise i don't know if you would notice much improvement. The 56mm compressor limits airflow in a single application for sure. But the ht3b should be providing all the air you need to burn the fuel you have. If you're after more topend power you need to change most of what you have including the timing. Right now that's a very well balanced towing focused setup.

 

[Signature600]

I gotta ask..why the A2W intercooler and shelf milled off the head with such a mild fuel and air setup? I think for a daily driving street driven truck you are giving up efficiency with that cooler, unless you are constantly reloading it with ice...

As far as the shelf, why not? 12v don't breathe.

The A2W, as long as he has a good cooler up front for it to keep the water cool, it's more efficient at cooling that an A2A, though more complicated.

Some conversions don't have tons of room up front, most Ford's should, but not all.
Chris

 

[Vincejax]

As far as the shelf, why not? 12v don't breathe.

The A2W, as long as he has a good cooler up front for it to keep the water cool, it's more efficient at cooling that an A2A, though more complicated.

Some conversions don't have tons of room up front, most Ford's should, but not all.
Chris

Why not the shelf? Because the restriction is at the intake valve, not the intake plenum.

If you are cooling the water for the A2W with air up front then water is only a intermediary for air to air cooling and thus a loss in efficiency.

 

[Signature600]

Why not the shelf? Because the restriction is at the intake valve, not the intake plenum.

If you are cooling the water for the A2W with air up front then water is only a intermediary for air to air cooling and thus a loss in efficiency.

Done much heavy towing with a 12v? Every little change in the airflow to make it better helps. They don't breathe for crap. You don't know that he just machined off the shelf and didn't touch anything else, just the same as I don't know he did any additional work.


I have spent a ton of miles towing with a 12v anywhere up to 50K lbs gross weight, I know how they act.



Water is a more efficient agent for transferring heat. Air is nice because it removes complexity, but the man already has an A2W, so I doubt 2 guys arguing about thermodynamic properties on the internet will make him rebuild his setup.

Chris

 

[Vincejax]

Done much heavy towing with a 12v? Every little change in the airflow to make it better helps. They don't breathe for crap. You don't know that he just machined off the shelf and didn't touch anything else, just the same as I don't know he did any additional work.


I have spent a ton of miles towing with a 12v anywhere up to 50K lbs gross weight, I know how they act.



Water is a more efficient agent for transferring heat. Air is nice because it removes complexity, but the man already has an A2W, so I doubt 2 guys arguing about thermodynamic properties on the internet will make him rebuild his setup.

Chris

Well he has a very mild cam and small turbos, I doubt he has larger valves and if he does it would probably hurt power on his setup. Hence no gains to be had from removing the plenum.
Water has more thermal mass than air, yes it is better for transferring heat, but on a towing setup the water will become heat soaked very quickly. If you are using another cooler up front to cool the water down for the A2W (your assumption, OP never said that) then you have to cool the water back down as well as cool your intake charge. Hence a loss in cooling efficiency. A2W intercoolers work well in applications where there is an ice water reservoir or cold seawater available for cooling. You have to cool the water below ambient air temp to get the high efficiency you are talking about. If his truck is already apart for major upgrades, a swap to a charge air cooler would definitely be an overall gain for his towing and drivability.

On another note I bet the truck would wake up a lot from a timing advance.

 

[alienturtle]

I milled the intake and fabricated my own intake because..its fun and leaves room for plenty of upgrades down the road...mainly because its fun. I did the air2water with 2 large coolers up front thinking it would keep the air temps down better than air to air. I have a air temp gauge pre intercooling and post intercooler. Always had a pretty nice drop in temp between the 2. Even driving thousands of miles towing the trailer. I plan to put a fuel plate in the 180hp p pump. Was wondering if doing the hybrid would help efficiency at all.

 

[alienturtle]

These are mostly pre build photos i have about 50k on the setup.

 

[chevota84]

Personally, I think a better primary would be more useful than a bigger compressor on the secondary.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

[alienturtle]

A couple of guys have mentioned timing. May i ask what you guys think i should run? I have a 180hp pump. It was re sealed and put on a flow bench to balance everything. They told me they "bumped" it up a tad. I put a rack plug in it even though i know the rack is still being limited. I plan to do a fuel plate ment for manual trans and towing. Im not a black out intersection guy. Appreciate all your guys help

 

[Signature600]

A couple of guys have mentioned timing. May i ask what you guys think i should run? I have a 180hp pump. It was re sealed and put on a flow bench to balance everything. They told me they "bumped" it up a tad. I put a rack plug in it even though i know the rack is still being limited. I plan to do a fuel plate ment for manual trans and towing. Im not a black out intersection guy. Appreciate all your guys help

Towing I wouldn't go an more than 17*


I put 200K miles on a 95 12v towing anywhere up to 50K lbs gross weight...#100 plate I ground, 022 Delivery Valves, 17* timing, and 5x.012" injectors. Turbos were a few different options, but my favorite setup was the last...S300 with a 58mm Extended tip wheel with the 65mm turbine in a 12cm wastegated housing.

That setup did 398hp/998tq at the rear wheels and never got above 1300* no matter what you did. I had other setups that made more power, but they didn't work as nice towing as heavy as I did.

Chris

 

[alienturtle]

Towing I wouldn't go an more than 17*


I put 200K miles on a 95 12v towing anywhere up to 50K lbs gross weight...#100 plate I ground, 022 Delivery Valves, 17* timing, and 5x.012" injectors. Turbos were a few different options, but my favorite setup was the last...S300 with a 58mm Extended tip wheel with the 65mm turbine in a 12cm wastegated housing.

That setup did 398hp/998tq at the rear wheels and never got above 1300* no matter what you did. I had other setups that made more power, but they didn't work as nice towing as heavy as I did.

Chris

Thanks for the help. I have been working toward an efficient tow setup. Sounds like my 15 degrees is not that far off for my setup. I think the fuel plate will help. I am running stock delivery valves. I dont think that is limiting me right now. Sounds like adding the hybrid 40 wont do me any good?

 

[Vincejax]

I milled the intake and fabricated my own intake because..its fun and leaves room for plenty of upgrades down the road...mainly because its fun. I did the air2water with 2 large coolers up front thinking it would keep the air temps down better than air to air. I have a air temp gauge pre intercooling and post intercooler. Always had a pretty nice drop in temp between the 2. Even driving thousands of miles towing the trailer. I plan to put a fuel plate in the 180hp p pump. Was wondering if doing the hybrid would help efficiency at all.

What is your temperature drop from the intercooler? I am curious. I datalog my racetruck pre and post CAC intake temp and I see about a 500* drop. Pre cooler about 580* and post cooler 105-110*. That is with 80* ambient air temp.

 

[Vincejax]

A couple of guys have mentioned timing. May i ask what you guys think i should run? I have a 180hp pump. It was re sealed and put on a flow bench to balance everything. They told me they "bumped" it up a tad. I put a rack plug in it even though i know the rack is still being limited. I plan to do a fuel plate ment for manual trans and towing. Im not a black out intersection guy. Appreciate all your guys help

20-22* would wake it up a lot. Many diesel engines even larger than these came stock at 18* timing back in the 80's. The low timing is to reduce combustion temps and NOX emissions. Its not doing you any favors for power or efficiency.

 

[alienturtle]

What is your temperature drop from the intercooler? I am curious. I datalog my racetruck pre and post CAC intake temp and I see about a 500* drop. Pre cooler about 580* and post cooler 105-110*. That is with 80* ambient air temp.

I was seeing an average of 200 to 300 degree drop. this number got a little smaller the longer i drove but always seemed to have a drop. I had a picture of the gauge but it seems to be mia. I have a large waterbox as well. Im thinking with the large coolers and volume of water helps keep it from heat soaking. Iv had the truck down and torn apart for the better part of a year getting rid of the leaf springs and building a 4 link front end. The numbers are a little fuzzy.

 

[Signature600]

20-22* would wake it up a lot. Many diesel engines even larger than these came stock at 18* timing back in the 80's. The low timing is to reduce combustion temps and NOX emissions. Its not doing you any favors for power or efficiency.

Lower timing also moves the power down towards lower RPM. For towing, you don't need power at 2500RPM, you need it from 1500-up. Lower timing will help that.

Chris

 

[Vincejax]

Lower timing also moves the power down towards lower RPM. For towing, you don't need power at 2500RPM, you need it from 1500-up. Lower timing will help that.

Chris

Lower timing would add torque, not power. And even on a stock application you would see torque peak at about 1600 and hp peak at around 2600. It will be more responsive across the board as well as more fuel efficient and lower egt with some more timing.

 

[Vincejax]

I was seeing an average of 200 to 300 degree drop. this number got a little smaller the longer i drove but always seemed to have a drop. I had a picture of the gauge but it seems to be mia. I have a large waterbox as well. Im thinking with the large coolers and volume of water helps keep it from heat soaking. Iv had the truck down and torn apart for the better part of a year getting rid of the leaf springs and building a 4 link front end. The numbers are a little fuzzy.

Your application could do a lot better with air to air cooling. The advantage with the air to water is from the water being colder than ambient air temp (ice water box or seawater). "Cooling" your charge air with warm water then trying to cool the water down with ambient air is less efficient than just cooling your charge air with a CAC directly. If you would like I'd be happy to post a picture of a datalog showing how efficient a CAC can be.

 

[alienturtle]

Your application could do a lot better with air to air cooling. The advantage with the air to water is from the water being colder than ambient air temp (ice water box or seawater). "Cooling" your charge air with warm water then trying to cool the water down with ambient air is less efficient than just cooling your charge air with a CAC directly. If you would like I'd be happy to post a picture of a datalog showing how efficient a CAC can be.

that would cool to see. Im actually not against loosing the w2A and going with a large A2A if it will be more efficient than the W2A. I have no real world data to show one will work more efficient in my application. There seems to be a lot of variables involved also. how large are the coolers. water volume, how large of an intercooler ect