UDC + GT3788R over GTX4202R versus Box Smarty + 57/65/14 over GTX4202R Results

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metal_miner

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I struggled choosing in which section to post this, but figured this is as good as any. Moderators, please move to another section if more appropriate.

This thread combines Smarty UDC testing with a continuation of this thread that showed the effects of changing from a journal bearing primary turbo to a ball bearing primary:

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109883

Anyhow, I’ve had my Big Twin Diesel Garrett BB compound setup installed now for a few months. It’s a GT3788R over my previous GTX4202R. The GT3788R is externally gated and the GTX4202R is internally gated.

I’ve also been playing around with Smarty UDC and took the box TNT/R #9 and massaged it in terms of multiple PITA iterations of map smoothing and cut-and-pastes to/from the timing calculator. Basically I smoothly ramp up to 30* timing and 26,000 psi @ WOT using the #9 duration map. The #9 duration map maxes out at ~3380 us, which, yes, is fairly lengthy according to what I’ve researched on the forums. On the street @ WOT this tune is about 61 psi total, 26 psi interstage, and 1300* EGT and the exhaust is totally clean. For the sake of this thread call this tune UDC #1.

Thinking that my Flux 2 injectors (100 HP) might be limiting me, I created another UDC tune which increased duration by 100 us to 3480 us just for dynoing purposes. For the sake of this thread call this tune UDC #2.

So today I dynoed at the same place I've dynoed every modification since I bought my truck new in 2003. The following are the results with no correction factor.

UDC #1
684 HP
1203 ft-lbs
61 psi total
26 psi interstage
1300* EGT
26k psi rail pressure

UDC #2
685 HP
1200 ft-lbs
60 psi total
26 psi interstage
1350* EGT
26k psi rail pressure

Box Smarty TNT/R #9
623 HP
1038 ft-lbs
60 psi total
26 psi interstage
1300* EGT
26k psi rail pressure

UDC #1 versus TNT/R #9

[ame="http://s1209.photobucket.com/user/metal_miner/media/Smarty%20UDC/UDCTune1versusBoxTNTR9_zpsda6e72f7.jpg.html"]UDCTune1versusBoxTNTR9_zpsda6e72f7.jpg Photo by metal_miner | Photobucket[/ame]

UDC #2 versus TNT/R #9

[ame="http://s1209.photobucket.com/user/metal_miner/media/Smarty%20UDC/UDCTune2versusBoxTNTR9_zpsce2e6f7b.jpg.html"]UDCTune2versusBoxTNTR9_zpsce2e6f7b.jpg Photo by metal_miner | Photobucket[/ame]

UDC #1 versus UDC #2

[ame="http://s1209.photobucket.com/user/metal_miner/media/Smarty%20UDC/UDCTune1vsUDCTune2_zps037e0b7d.jpg.html"]UDCTune1vsUDCTune2_zps037e0b7d.jpg Photo by metal_miner | Photobucket[/ame]

Ball Bearing versus Journal Bearing Turbo Performance

The following graphs just give an indication as to how the performance changes from journal bearing turbos to ball bearing turbos. Keep in mind the tuning is not the same so this is just general FYI !!!

Journal Bearing GT4202 versus Ball Bearing GTX4202R: Common Journal Bearing 57/65/14 Secondary:

[ame="http://s1209.photobucket.com/user/metal_miner/media/GTX4202R%20Primary%20Turbo/GT4202vsGTX4202RTNTR_5TST4x0_rpm.jpg.html"]GT4202vsGTX4202RTNTR_5TST4x0_rpm.jpg Photo by metal_miner | Photobucket[/ame]

Full BB setup versus Primary BB setup:

[ame="http://s1209.photobucket.com/user/metal_miner/media/Smarty%20UDC/UDCTune1BTDBBtwinversusBoxTNTR7TST2x0MPI_zps58e94c99.jpg.html"]UDCTune1BTDBBtwinversusBoxTNTR7TST2x0MPI_zps58e94c99.jpg Photo by metal_miner | Photobucket[/ame]

General Observations and Comments

-My UDC tune gained about 60 HP over the standard Smarty box tune solely by map smoothing as well as timing and rail pressure ramp rate.
-I really wished I brought a laptop so I could load up another UDC tune with lower duration to see if I could make the same power with less EGT.
-I have Performax gauges, but haven’t hooked up the data logging yet. As such, while handy, I only was able to do a peak recall after each dyno run. Aarghhh!
-Ditto for a new drive pressure gauge sitting on my workbench.

Overall I think my injectors are matched to my air supply, but I would like to run less duration and perhaps less timing. Perhaps new, bigger injectors are in my future. Although, I don't have any timing rattle and my coolant temps stay in check, bigger injectors would allow me to back off on the timing to achieve the same performance (I think????).

And, finally, the 3400 rpm defueling wall sucks.
 
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That is a lot of duration, find it hard to believe that your really topping out at 1300 degree's with all that duration. I managed 700hp with stock injectors however 32,000lbs rail (and no stock injectors don't like that much pressure). Was at that 3500us or better and 1900 degrees exhaust temp.

Is it an inertia dyno?
 
Joesixpack said:
That is a lot of duration, find it hard to believe that your really topping out at 1300 degree's with all that duration. I managed 700hp with stock injectors however 32,000lbs rail (and no stock injectors don't like that much pressure). Was at that 3500us or better and 1900 degrees exhaust temp.

Is it an inertia dyno?
Click to expand...

It was a Dynojet so short dyno runs.

The duration @ 3500 us is only what the UDC map for TNT/R #9 shows @ WOT ... don't know if that is correct or not since have no other means to log...

What you and others said about that duration really worries me too so I'm going to tune it down ASAP!
 
:doh: on my part - it's been a long day...

Since I hit the defueling wall at 3300 - 3400 rpm it looks like I maybe topped out between 2200 - 2800 us duration according to this table:

TNTR9duration_zps9afdf81f.jpg
 
The duration table has nothing to do with rpm.

The values it references from are mm3 (load for you smarty guys) and rail pressure.

I don't know why Marco put rpm in there because that is NOT correct.
 
DODGE74 said:
The duration table has nothing to do with rpm.

The values it references from are mm3 (load for you smarty guys) and rail pressure.

I don't know why Marco put rpm in there because that is NOT correct.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification
 
That is a lot of duration, at 3,000 rpms the additional 100us takes 1.8° to inject. If you start at 30° BTDC and the pulse is 62° long the difference in fuel from 3380us to 3480us is happening at 30-32° ATDC, thats too far ATDC to make any more power but it will add heat as you can see. I bet it added drive pressure too.

At 2000 rpms it should have added a little power, but maybe it was too much for your CP3 at those rpms, or dyno technique. Then again if you didn't modify timing and just the duration all that fuel is at the end of the injection, and even at 2000 it was probably too late to do much but add heat.

Going to bigger injectors and cutting the duration back is good. I cut my duration about 600us going with BBi Stage 1's to get about the same power, it produces a much cleaner and cooler burn.

DODGE74 said:
The duration table has nothing to do with rpm.

The values it references from are mm3 (load for you smarty guys) and rail pressure.

I don't know why Marco put rpm in there because that is NOT correct.
Click to expand...

Bingo!! In the UDC thread there is a photo of the correct labels.

Essentially when you are WOT you are pulling from the far right column, the row is based on commanded rail pressure.

Joesixpack said:
That is a lot of duration, find it hard to believe that your really topping out at 1300 degree's with all that duration. I managed 700hp with stock injectors however 32,000lbs rail (and no stock injectors don't like that much pressure). Was at that 3500us or better and 1900 degrees exhaust temp.

Is it an inertia dyno?
Click to expand...

How did you pull 32K psi? MP-8?
 
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AH64ID said:
That is a lot of duration, at 3,000 rpms the additional 100us takes 1.8° to inject. If you start at 30° BTDC and the pulse is 62° long the difference in fuel from 3380us to 3480us is happening at 30-32° ATDC, thats too far ATDC to make any more power but it will add heat as you can see. I bet it added drive pressure too.

At 2000 rpms it should have added a little power, but maybe it was too much for your CP3 at those rpms, or dyno technique. Then again if you didn't modify timing and just the duration all that fuel is at the end of the injection, and even at 2000 it was probably too late to do much but add heat.

Going to bigger injectors and cutting the duration back is good. I cut my duration about 600us going with BBi Stage 1's to get about the same power, it produces a much cleaner and cooler burn.
Click to expand...

After I dynoed I went across the street and visited Pat and he said the same thing about the duration. I'm going to get my calculator out and start cutting it back and seeing where I end up.

I wish F1 would provide flow specs on their injectors so I can compare to flow specs of stock injectors and then use this as a basis for tuning as opposed to blind stabs in the dark.
 
My question is regarding the turbos!!

I currently have a GT42-02 with a 1.15 A/R T4 housing as my primary turbo

I have been kicking around the possibility of replacing it with a GTX and possibly a 1.28 T4 Housing.

I would think it would free up some more power on the top end, while still keeping the bottom end nice and fat. What did you end up getting between Ball bearing and journal bearing Garrets?

Currently at ~630 HP and ~1300 foot pounds.
 
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Diesel Freak said:
What did you end up getting between Ball bearing and journal bearing Garrets?
Click to expand...

First off, a compliment... I remember reading up a lot of your posts on NWB in regards to designing a compound setup using engineering fundamentals. I had to crack open my old thermo texts...

Anyhow, what I have now:

BB Secondary = Garrett GT3788R with non-wastegated T3 0.89 exhaust housing.

BB Primary = Garrett GTX4202R with wastegated T6 1.15 exhaust housing

Secondary is on a Steedspeed manifold with a Tial 44 mm wastegate.

All connections are V-banded except the intercooler feed pipe-to-intercooler connection.

Dirty, winter picture:

BTDCompounds_zpscdfa8b33.jpg


I also have e-copies of all my dyno files as well as the Dynojet file viewer so I can show the data in other ways if you want.

When running on the street at my 685 HP dyno settings, I'll be at 61 psi overall, 26 psi primary, and ~1300 EGT. After reading replies to this thread and another thread on another forum, I think I can tune down the duration a bit to yield same power at less EGT.
 
Thanks!!

It looks like from your dyno sheets showing the transition from the GT 42 to the GTX 42 you actually picket some midrange power, but lost a little on top. Was there also a fueling change in there too??

I am not pusing my turbos very hard. Secondary is a PDR40 shoved into a 16cm H1C housing, Wastgated by a 38mm TiAL knockoff. The primary wastgate is a 50mm HKS Knockoff

at the 430 HP power level, it's a total of 40 PSI, 17 off the GT42 and ~ 1100F I can drop it to 37-38 psi but EGT gets to 1200ish

Bumbed to 630 HP, I am at 55psi total, 30 off the GT42 and 1350F.

however, I am running a BD intercooler, Helix 2 cam, and ported head with follow up porting and polishing by ExtrudeHone, exhaust valves throughout, and unshrouded intake valves.
 
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Diesel Freak said:
Thanks!!

It looks like from your dyno sheets showing the transition from the GT 42 to the GTX 42 you actually picket some midrange power, but lost a little on top. Was there also a fueling change in there too??

I am not pusing my turbos very hard. Secondary is a PDR40 shoved into a 16cm H1C housing, Wastgated by a 38mm TiAL knockoff. The primary wastgate is a 50mm HKS Knockoff

at the 430 HP power level, it's a total of 40 PSI, 17 off the GT42 and ~ 1100F I can drop it to 37-38 psi but EGT gets to 1200ish

Bumbed to 630 HP, I am at 55psi total, 30 off the GT42 and 1350F.

however, I am running a BD intercooler, Helix 2 cam, and ported head with follow up porting and polishing by ExtrudeHone, exhaust valves throughout, and unshrouded intake valves.
Click to expand...

The dyno tests when I switched from GT to GTX primary had all the same fueling parameters. Also, SOP also suggested way more responsiveness off idle and mid-range with the GTX.

In general, when I had the 57/65/14 journal bearing top turbo I saw higher pressure in the cold pipe with the GTX primary with all other things being equal.

I am also using an HTT intercooler, but am running my original, unworked head.
 
1300 is not hot...lol

Good Job Julius! I dont think your timing is extreme either for 03-04 trucks. THat is where my truck is happiest as well.
 
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