Bosch Motorsport nozzles bashing thread

We use a 124 angle 5 hole, VCO nozzle for the 04.5 and up. Sometimes use a 125 angle sac nozzle, but rarely now for same.

For the 03-04 we use a 144, the stock 143, 8 hole or the marine (often, incorrectly termed the motorsport nozzle) that is 143.

we have tried a lot of combinations and ideas. Come back to near stock or stock angles for most applications.

Christians are 144. Have about 200K miles on them, last I heard. He has an 03-04 engine.
 
dvst8r said:
No issues here, Exergy done Bosch motorsports injectors. We have made as much or more power with a cr as anyone going down the track. If these injectors are wrong, I don't want what is right.
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Im with you. I love the wrong spray angle. We are running open bowl design in our 6.4 motor as well with the motorsport nozzles.
 
Soup Nazi said:
We use a 124 angle 5 hole, VCO nozzle for the 04.5 and up. Sometimes use a 125 angle sac nozzle, but rarely now for same.

For the 03-04 we use a 144, the stock 143, 8 hole or the marine (often, incorrectly termed the motorsport nozzle) that is 143.

we have tried a lot of combinations and ideas. Come back to near stock or stock angles for most applications.

Christians are 144. Have about 200K miles on them, last I heard. He has an 03-04 engine.
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Thanks Don...I never pay attention to the details. Thats your job and you do a damn good job of them.
 
Smokem said:
This is actually completely false, both DDP and F1 have sold nozzles with different cone angles for the relative piston bowl.

I guess you were just proven wrong...sorry for my 1 degree error.



How many people use the marine nozzle now on a daily driven application @ 750hp and above? The simple answer is many, and they have posted, yet that seems to be missed.


Where...I have not seen many...nor have you or anyone else with real miles stepped up...just my stuff works because it lasted two days comments. Thats not real...might be ok for racing or sled pulling...but how about years of service?


In more than one instance the 8mm top ring land has been used with a wider cone angle than 143°, so again I fail to see your point.
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Just look at the drawing...compare the design of the piston thickness of where the spray should hit and where your suggesting the spray should hit. Makes sense to me...and the OEM. Maybe you have some tests to show otherwise. I have some cooked pistons out of another truck that had been cut in half, and hardness tested...and the location of the spray was always where the material was the softest...suggesting heat concentration. I personally would not locate that spot where there was the least amount of material in the piston.
 
cquestad said:
Just look at the drawing...compare the design of the piston thickness of where the spray should hit and where your suggesting the spray should hit. Makes sense to me...and the OEM. Maybe you have some tests to show otherwise. I have some cooked pistons out of another truck that had been cut in half, and hardness tested...and the location of the spray was always where the material was the softest...suggesting heat concentration. I personally would not locate that spot where there was the least amount of material in the piston.
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Yet the guys making the most power are, and are not having failures. Am I missing something here, or is this not completely obvious and just being overlooked?

As per your edit; F1 and DDP have used nozzles in the past with different cone angles for the relative piston, far more than 1° in cone angle. I do not disagree with this practice, as everything has it's place.
 
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Anything lasts 10 seconds unless you really mess up. What part of that are you not understanding?

No knock to dvst8r...he has one heck of a truck, but has he run a F1 124 on that piston or tried a 145 on a 03-04 piston to see if he could make more power?

My truck is not a record breaker in any one competition, but it has made a ton of power...now 4 digit on a measly 130ish lbs a min twins that have been around for years on less than optimal tuning nearly smoke free for 265k miles? I probably wins that combination...the abuse one.

I have countless trips towing across the west aveaging 40-60 psi boost at 1300-1500 degrees for 10-12 hours a haul...and not one bad sign on an OEM shortblock or even worn out a set of injectors. I will stick to that proof.
 
Smokem said:
You have the early bowl design? So how is your arguement even relative to this discussion?
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Very relative...there are people that know far more than you. Stop reading between the lines in what I am saying. Cummins did what they did with bowl design and spray angle for a reason. Those that stay within those lines are the ones that come out on top and the end.


Thank god there is finally a god arguement about diesel instead of politics on this forum again.
 
cquestad said:
Very relative...there are people that know far more than you. Stop reading between the lines in what I am saying. Cummins did what they did with bowl design and spray angle for a reason. Those that stay within those lines are the ones that come out on top and the end.


Thank god there is finally a god arguement about diesel instead of politics on this forum again.
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What if Bill Gates chose to stay within the lines, or better yet... what if Rudolf Diesel thought a gas engine is the only thing that will work as a motor ? Guess we wouldn't be worried about spray angles at all. Those that think outside the box are going to get a lot farther than just following the crowd. Don is your god and that's great, the man obviously knows his stuff. There are other ideas and ways of doing things though.
 
cquestad said:
What part of that are you not understanding?


My truck is not a record breaker in any one competition, but it has made a ton of power...now 4 digit on a measly 130ish lbs a min twins that have been around for years on less than optimal tuning nearly smoke free for 265k miles? I probably wins that combination...the abuse one.

I have countless trips towing across the west aveaging 40-60 psi boost at 1300-1500 degrees for 10-12 hours a haul...and not one bad sign on an OEM shortblock or even worn out a set of injectors. I will stick to that proof.
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Re-entrant pistons, Yes?
 
cquestad said:
Stop reading between the lines in what I am saying.
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Ok, let me clearly state the obvious; you do not even have the piston nozzle combination being discussed, so why are you using your setup as an example?

cquestad said:
Anything lasts 10 seconds unless you really mess up. What part of that are you not understanding?
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You got a lot to learn if this is your belief.
 
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For the Common Rail, we have never sold a nozzle with any more than 2 degrees of change over stock to a retail customer. This equates to 1 degree per side. Mostly this is for tweaking the last bit of power out. For some of the VP44 applications we have a 3 degree change total. 1.5 degrees per side. The RV 275 nozzle is 153 VS a 152 for stock as well. We dont use the RV nozzle, but this is an example that small changes really have no real effect on durability. There are thousands of sets of RV injectors in VP trucks that never had a problem.

For some serious racers we have done some different custom stuff, per their personal requests. For example, a 148 in a 124 engine that had custom timing tables, pistons, etc. Essentially a custom engine that required a different part.

The above is a different practice than what is being discussed here though. A change from 124 to 143 is not minimal. 19 total or 9.5 per side. I dont see a rash of failures with them. Just a few here and there. All changes have trade offs. As newer technology comes along the "best practice" is to identify if the trade offs have more benefits to the customers needs VS the changes in say; durability.

We identified higher soot levels in the oil using an angle this wide with large flow rates. That wont make a hill of beans difference to a racer though. A long hauler hot shot truck would certainly suffer though. So trade offs and benefits apply here.

Plenty of people in competition seem happy with the 143 part. Cant argue that. If I was trying to squeeze out the most power, staying at or near the stock angles is where I would go. Barring concerns over heat and smoke levels of course. Wider angles can help in those regards in some cases.
 
Can you guys give any insight on the 10 holes Scheid sells or sold ? Don or Weston, have you done any testing with them and what did you find if you did ? I tried a set a long time ago which did cut down smoke but, didn't help my rattle.
 
cquestad said:
I have countless trips towing across the west aveaging 40-60 psi boost at 1300-1500 degrees for 10-12 hours a haul...and not one bad sign on an OEM shortblock or even worn out a set of injectors. I will stick to that proof.
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What are you hauling?
 
Soup Nazi said:
For the Common Rail, we have never sold a nozzle with any more than 2 degrees of change over stock to a retail customer.
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3° for the 24v nozzles and 10° for the 12v nozzles is what I was referring to.

As far as everything else you said, oddly enough I tend to agree.
 
zstroken said:
What are you hauling?
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80k lbs through the Rockies at 1000hp making 100lbs of boost. His truck can do things no other can do. Didnt you know that by now. It's all he spats off about on here.

So back to late model re-entrant pistons and different spray angles.
Tapamaxxing
 
Ok...got me on that one.

I am not sure what I have done to offend the above two members...but sorry.


I am proud of my truck/work and maybe use it in too many examples. But, it is hands on...not my friend this, cousin this, read that crap.

To answer...gross 15-30k towing my offroad dirtbike race team's tandem axle 30' enclosed, 28' tandem and 36' tripple goose neck flatbeds for delivering storage tanks and other business related stuff, and least often a 32' goose neck 6 horse trailer with living quarters. 200 miles weekly with a 1000-2500 mile trip one a month 85-90 mph on the interstate or remote highway.

Regardless...a good enough load to see some stress.

My question was skipped about those who are mismatching bowl and spray designs...do you have proof it is better? and how?
 
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