Building from scratch - Efficiency

[adventr]

Hey guys, I've recently acquired a complete 12v engine (VE Pump), that I'm tearing down and will be rebuilding.

I'm new here, but this isn't my first build. A few years back, I built a 12v chevy for a tow rig, and I wen't a little overboard with the power level. For this build, I'm looking to do something that seems to be a little out of the norm, which is building for efficiency.

This engine will be going in a Landcruiser that gets used for expedition type travel. Think long distances, lots of offroad mixed in, self reliant.
The cruiser is big, very heavy, geared, locked, and is currently powered by a Toyota I6 (only about 250lbs difference between this motor and 6bt). Makes a good amount of low-end torque, but gets 10mpg and has trouble maintaing speed (without winding it way up) on the highway.


Ok, now for the build talk. I pretty much know what I want to achieve, and that is:
1. Very reliable (shouldn't be a problem for the 12v!)
2. Instant throttle response at low rpm
3. No turbo lag (kinda goes along with the response)
4. Decent fuel mileage

Now, here is where I need your help. Budget isn't really an issue for this build (do it right, do it once), but it doesn't really make sense to add a lot of parts that I don't need. I would appreciate your honest, experienced opinion on my proposed build, and feel free to weed out some parts, or add something that I'm totally overlooking!




* Engine Machining *

All machine work performed by local shop, to include:

Bore .020" over
Clean Block
Replace Cam Bearing
Inspect & Polish Crank
Inspect Rods
Full Head Job

I'm sure they will do other things that I am leaving out (having trouble remembering what all the quote included), but I was quoted $1048 for machine work.
Can you guys recommend anything else while they are in there?



* Parts I will be supplying to machine shop *

Full rebuild kit from Pure Diesel:
http://www.puredieselpower.com/catalog/8993-first-gen-dodge-59l-valve-cummins-series-engine-rebuild-kit-p-35079.html

60lb Valve Springs




They will be assembling the short block (crank, rods, pistons). Is there anything else I'm missing here? Anything you would add to the list?

How do you feel about the rebuild kit from Pure Diesel? I know they really try to push the "Large Bowl Pistons" for their kit. That apparently lowers the compression down to 17.6:1
Should I go with that, or the 91.5-93 small bowl pistons?



Continued below

 

[adventr]

Once I have all the parts back from the machine shop, I'll be assembling the engine.

This next area of discussion, makes my head hurt from thinking about all of the possible options (as I'm not too familiar with these engines).
What all should be purchased new (whether from Cummins or Aftermarket) when I start putting this thing together?

Help me modify this list:

Oil Pump
Tappets
Cam *see below
Pushrods
Bottom End Hardware <-- Should I go with Studs?
Top End Hardware <-- I'm thinking Studs for the head

Add whatever else you would replace if you were going to build one right.




* Cam *

From the research I've done, there looks to be a lot to be had from swapping in a new camshaft. I'm definitely open to doing this. I'm looking for efficiency and low-mid response.
Any experience/suggestions for a cam swap?
Re-ground or Cast/Billet Blank?
Does the cam require any supporting mods while I'm inside the engine?





After the long-block is assembled, I'll be adding fuel & air.


* Turbo *

For the type of throttle response I'm looking for, it seems that the HE351ve (VGT) is well suited. I fully understand how VGT works, and with my background in electrical engineering, I'm fully capable of building an electronic controller. That is, in fact, another area where I'll probably put way too much thought into, and could probably occupy it's own thread later on.

I know that the VGT turbo will require an Adapter to bolt up to the 12v manifold. That is an option, BUT, I see that Fleece Performance offers a manifold already setup for the VGT flange:
http://www.fleeceperformance.com/product/0d78a515-cd1f-4b23-a75c-b8e5667c7e1d.aspx

What are your thoughts on that manifold vs the typical adapter setup? Personally, I like to keep things simple. Adapter requires multiple gaskets and more bolts to keep tightened, whereas the new manifold is less complex.
Any other options out there for this?




Another turbo I've considered, is the HE351cw. With it's 9cm exhaust housing, it should spool pretty quickly I would imagine.
Thoughts?

 

[Smokie Okie]

If you're only spinning stock VE rpm's you don't need 60lb valve springs. Every little bit helps when building for efficiency. $.02

 

[SHughes]

Have you considered stroking it out with a 6.7L crank? Obviously would need custom pistons.

And I would keep the compression up as a high as possible.

 

[adventr]

* Fuel *


I'll be going with a fresh VE Pump from a vendor. Not sure who, just yet, but I am open to suggestions. I would like a good quality re-build. I'll be doing the typical pump mods, just on a more conservative scale, as longevity is required.
I will be adding a fuel pin, and a 3200 gov spring, as the extra RPM will be needed at times!


I'm going to assume that the stock injectors on this engine are worn out. What would you go with if you were building this engine?

New stock injectors from Cummins?
Aftermarket injectors for more performance (and possibly a more efficient pattern)?

 

[adventr]

If you're only spinning stock VE rpm's you don't need 60lb valve springs. Every little bit helps when building for efficiency. $.02

Good info! I will be running a 3200 gov spring in the VE pump, as the extra RPM will be needed at times. I was under the impression that the 60lb springs were good for peace of mind. I'm not sure of the condition on the stock valve springs either.
Also, if I go VGT, I will have an option of exhaust brake.

 

[adventr]

Have you considered stroking it out with a 6.7L crank? Obviously would need custom pistons.

And I would keep the compression up as a high as possible.

Honestly, I didn't even know you could stroke it out using the 6.7L crank! I'll do some research on it, for sure.

If it requires custom pistons, and extra machine work, I'll probably pass on that option though. I'm not looking for huge power numbers, and I like the simplicity of using off-the-shelf parts.

 

[Smokie Okie]

* Fuel *


I'll be going with a fresh VE Pump from a vendor. Not sure who, just yet, but I am open to suggestions. I would like a good quality re-build. I'll be doing the typical pump mods, just on a more conservative scale, as longevity is required.
I will be adding a fuel pin, and a 3200 gov spring, as the extra RPM will be needed at times!


I'm going to assume that the stock injectors on this engine are worn out. What would you go with if you were building this engine?

New stock injectors from Cummins?
Aftermarket injectors for more performance (and possibly a more efficient pattern)?

Stay as small as possible for efficiency when picking injectors. Also, the size of your piston bowl will determine the nozzle/spray angle you'll want. Search some of the posts/threads on here from Smokem
. He has provided some great information on this subject.

 

[Smokie Okie]

Good info! I will be running a 3200 gov spring in the VE pump, as the extra RPM will be needed at times. I was under the impression that the 60lb springs were good for peace of mind. I'm not sure of the condition on the stock valve springs either.
Also, if I go VGT, I will have an option of exhaust brake.

In that case, go with the 60lbs.

 

[adventr]

Stay as small as possible for efficiency when picking injectors. Also, the size of your piston bowl will determine the nozzle/spray angle you'll want. Search some of the posts/threads on here from Smokem
. He has provided some great information on this subject.

Ok, excellent. I know I've got lot's of reading ahead, but wanted to start this thread so that I could collect my thoughts together.
I agree that I need to keep my compression UP, so that would be the 91.5-93 style piston bowls (smaller). Pure Diesel mentions something about the ring designs being better on the large bowl pistons (maybe the top ring was lower?).

In that case, go with the 60lbs.

Will do!

 

[adventr]

Here's a couple pictures of what the engine will be going in. It tips the scales at over 7k right now, and all said and done I expect it to be over 8k lbs.

 

[SHughes]

How well you do you expect the axles to hold up? That sounds sarcastic in my head but is not meant to be. A Cummins is going to put out a lot more torque Toyota motor.

 

[Smokem]

Wide bowl, wide cone angle, keep timing conservative. Not sure I would increase seat duration if response is what you are looking for, turbocharger sizing will depend on the power goal.

 

[BC847]

You say it's a 12v VE fueled engine. Is it an early '89 ~ '91.5 that runs a head with the 9mm injector bores, or the later '91.5 ~ '93 that runs the 7mm injector bores?


- For efficiency, and better throttle response, I'd pass on the custom fuel pin. Run the stock one perhaps set at its deepest. (People get WAY too carried away with the AFC stuff. Lean it out and enjoy a sharper throttle).

- Some of the more basic Bosch "190" injectors would serve you well in your application (unless Smokem knows of a better variety).

- A Hamilton Cam would go a long way in getting things spooled as early as possible. PM Zach Hamilton.

- Run a stock thickness head-gasket.

 

[9724VF350]

Wide bowl, wide cone angle, keep timing conservative.

Say, 64mm and 158* ?

 

[Smokem]

I'd use a 4-hole 160° before I would use a 7-hole 158° nozzle.

 

[adventr]

How well you do you expect the axles to hold up? That sounds sarcastic in my head but is not meant to be. A Cummins is going to put out a lot more torque Toyota motor.

I don't have any worries about the axles. The shafts have been upgraded, and I'm very conservative offroad (usually due to the fact that I'm litterally out in the middle of nowhere).
I do, however, have a set of 1-tons procured should the need to go bigger arise.

Wide bowl, wide cone angle, keep timing conservative. Not sure I would increase seat duration if response is what you are looking for, turbocharger sizing will depend on the power goal.

Wide bowl, meaning the earlier style pistons? How do you feel about the HE351ve and HE351cw for turbo choices?

You say it's a 12v VE fueled engine. Is it an early '89 ~ '91.5 that runs a head with the 9mm injector bores, or the later '91.5 ~ '93 that runs the 7mm injector bores?

- For efficiency, and better throttle response, I'd pass on the custom fuel pin. Run the stock one perhaps set at its deepest. (People get WAY too carried away with the AFC stuff. Lean it out and enjoy a sharper throttle).

- Some of the more basic Bosch "190" injectors would serve you well in your application (unless Smokem knows of a better variety).

- A Hamilton Cam would go a long way in getting things spooled as early as possible. PM Zach Hamilton.

- Run a stock thickness head-gasket.

It's a '92 model engine.

Good tip on the fuel pin. I'll start out with the stock one set on the deep end and play around with it. I tinkered a bunch on the cummins chevy I built a few years back getting it dialed it where I wanted it.

I've heard a lot about Hamilton cams. I'll be giving him a call.



Thanks for all the feedback, guys!

 

[SHughes]

I don't have any worries about the axles. The shafts have been upgraded, and I'm very conservative offroad (usually due to the fact that I'm litterally out in the middle of nowhere).
I do, however, have a set of 1-tons procured should the need to go bigger arise.

Kool beans. I knew you had thought about it, just wanted to ask.

 

[Smokem]

Wide bowl, meaning the earlier style pistons? How do you feel about the HE351ve and HE351cw for turbo choices?

Depends on power level as stated. When you go about this you will have people asking direct questions, sit down and come up with direct answers, much easier that way.

 

[Mudn_1]

sweet cruiser! is that one of frankie's lifts?

Also, Bean has a 470 with a 4bt.... so he might have some info on the swap