compound numbers

Charles, what kinda of power are you making, and what do your egts look like? Trying to build a 600 plus hp tow rig and would like to have your opinion on charger size. I don't want to end up with two turbos litteraly fighting each other. Harmony is what i like lol.


Well I've got an old ferd, so be forewarned, lol.

It usually makes low to mid 600's. However, I have no second stage cooler, and as such EGT isn't very good at full song. With water I'm looking at ~1600 degrees.

With that said, I can make ~450 to 500rwhp without even a hint of smoke, and EGT probably more around 1400.

Being that you can't honestly tow at much higher than 300 to 350rwhp for any sustained period of time, the setup will produce plenty of towing power while running tow friendly egts of less than 1100.

As far as a 5.9, I have no idea. (If that's what you have) But if that's the case, there are a plethora of people on this site that do.
 
May I ask then how you plan to size two turbochargers without knowing the flow rate of air entering the engine, nor the flow rate from one charger to the next or anywhere else?

Secondly....

How do you plan to determine how two compressors will match up without comparing the flow demands of each to their respective compressor maps?

You just plan on using calipers to determine compressor flow?

Help me out. I tried to give a good, detailed explanation and you're killing me here.

I dont believe flow of the engine in this case is relevant. I simply asked what the formula was for determining what 2 turbos will stage well together in compound. I have to assume the formula is the same for any engine/turbos. simple as that.
 
that would work for me to turbolvr just trying to put a very eff. twin set up togather.
 
I dont believe flow of the engine in this case is relevant. I simply asked what the formula was for determining what 2 turbos will stage well together in compound. I have to assume the formula is the same for any engine/turbos. simple as that.

If there is a formula for this, I'm not aware of it. I'm sure it could be written, but boy oh boy would it be a long one.


To reitterate:

- You start with engine airflow @ some rpm where you want to plot the setup. This provides you with the manifold flow requirement.

- You then use this flow rate as the basis for sizing your second stage, as the flow rate leaving the second stage (after any and all intercooling) will be this same value.

- Based on the manifold pressure you expect to run (whatever you feel is necessary for your power goal) you will know the total PR for the system. You can then work backward one more step by combining this PR (accounting for that achieved by the first stage compressor), with expected compressor efficiency to determine approximate compressor inflow for the second stage.

- This second stage inflow value defines the outflow requirement for the first stage compressor. Then, based on the remaining PR needed to achieve your target manifold PR with the already calculated second stage PR as well as the expected compressor efficiency of the first stage compressor you can again work backward one more time to arrive at the approximate compressor inflow for the first stage.

- You then take the approximate inflow values found for each stage, combined with the expected PR's for each stage and compare these requirements to available compressor maps for any chargers you suspect may work well. You will want to do this for a few rpm/boost points that form a representative sample of the types of conditions you expect when actually driving the truck. Whichever compressors show the highest efficiencies at these calculated values are the winners.

I don't have the mathematical background needed to make that a cookie-cutter formula.
 
I dont believe flow of the engine in this case is relevant. I simply asked what the formula was for determining what 2 turbos will stage well together in compound. I have to assume the formula is the same for any engine/turbos. simple as that.


Reading through again I realize that I may have overlooked what I assumed to be an obvious constraint, and may be able to produce the formula you are indeed looking for after all.

After exhaustive calculation and mind-warping leaps in logic I believe I may have produced the formula you seek.

Follow closely...

In order for the First Stage compressor to match up with the Second Stage compressor, the following equation must always hold true:




Variable Declaration:

O = Volume flow at First Stage compressor outlet.

I = Volume flow at Second Stage compressor inlet.




Formula in its entirety:

O = I


Tada!







I dont believe flow of the engine in this case is relevant.

I have to assume the formula is the same for any engine/turbos.


You are absolutely correct. And that is how you match a set of compounds without looking at any compressor maps nor knowing anything about the engine they are intended to be run on.

Simple as that
 
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Thanks for trying.
I have spent a lot of time documenting what turbo combos people were/are using and what the results have been, but I have heard a ton of speculation on what chargers "cant" go together only to find someone who tried it and thought it worked well. So I have been looking for a specific formula I can use to determine whether or not a pair of chargers is compatible (not with the engine) with each other. IE: will a HX82/28 work with a HX35/12 or a 465/.90 with a 480/1.32 what is too close or too far apart (size wise) to compound?
 
I just want to ask why? Why would you want to use an incorrect unit of measure and then make up some kind of correction factor when volume flow is right on the money, and truthfully what the wheel/shaft speed is determining in the first place? The mass flow numbers are a "corrected" value set to begin with based on actual outlet flow at some given atmo condition. Possibly at STP. Whereas, CFM is CFM, at any temp/pressure.

What is appealing about measuring a compressor's outlet flow in lbs/min? I'm not attacking your thoughts, I'm just curious what appeals to you about it, and how it helps you with your calculations because I have yet to find a use for mass flow values.


I like mass flow because mass flow is what determines the amount of air potentially available for HORSEPOWER.

CFM is fine and dandy but without temperature, it means nothing. A perfect example an HX35 at about 38psi gauge boost is almost maxed out as far as mass flow. You can push it harder and make 45psi but mass flow increase will be minimal. CFM, however, will increase. The more boost, the more CFM. Mass flow never misleads because it is not affected by temperature.
 
TURBOLVR, I am reminded of this thread from a while back where Diesel Freak mentioned using a ratio of 0.707:1 (and 0.75:1 for smaller sets) to size your secondary based on your primary compressor diameter. That way doesn't take into account any of the flow characteristics so its really just an educated guess to get you in the ball park. But the range of .7-.8 will net a decent starting point at least. :eek:



Charles, I'm not sure where you're from but if we ever crossed paths I'd buy you a drink or two. I've read a little into turbos and have descent math skills so I can follow you quite well but its great to see someone explaining it and bringing physics back into everything. :Cheer:
 
I like mass flow because mass flow is what determines the amount of air potentially available for HORSEPOWER.

CFM is fine and dandy but without temperature, it means nothing. A perfect example an HX35 at about 38psi gauge boost is almost maxed out as far as mass flow. You can push it harder and make 45psi but mass flow increase will be minimal. CFM, however, will increase. The more boost, the more CFM. Mass flow never misleads because it is not affected by temperature.


I can appreciate that to some degree. And with gassers, it's actually quite accurate, and very straight forward as the AF ratio will be held nearly constant on them.

However, I still feel that mass flow vs PR is technically incorrect for describing a compressor's flow characteristics. As stated before this is clearly demonstrated in the fact that any second stage compressor in most any typical compound setup will often be flowing 2 or more times the maximum mass flow value found on it's map. However, the volume flow rate will still be right in line with the map if you converted to CFM flow to begin with.

Secondly, I have to question the above assertion that volume flow and mass flow are not directly related anyway.... at least in terms of absolute system flow, although obviously not at all points along the system as was evidenced by the mass flow vs volume flow discrepancy pointed out above with the second stage compressor.

However, in terms of lbs of air per minute entering the engine, how could it be possible for the system (which really boils down to your first stage compressor) to draw in a higher volume flow rate without also drawing in a higher mass flow rate?

For any given ambient temperature and pressure, each cubic foot of atmosphere weighs an exact amount. If you increase the number of cubic feet entering the engine per minute, you have increased the mass flow as well. Turbocharger efficiency has no effect on ambient temperature. And as such, CFM flow means a good deal more than "nothing" without knowing temperature.

Furthermore....

The mass flow values you see on the compressor map are only occurring at some very specific atmospheric condition. Change that condition and that map is useless. The mass flow recorded this morning at ____ shaft rpm and a PR of ____ is not the same mass flow you would record this afternoon after the room has heated say 20 degrees.

Want to know the kicker though... The CFM flow would be identical between the two scenarios, because that's what the wheel cares about. And that is why I wonder why such hoopla about plotting compressor maps in mass flow vs PR instead of volume flow vs PR when mass flow isn't what the wheel is actually doing at any given shaft rpm and PR. It's literally "grabbing" ___ cubic feet of air per minute. Why it's not plotted as such is beyond me.
 
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How about this...secondary should have approx 50-60% of the mass flow of your primary...
 
Remember folks, you cant have mass w/o density....

I also take altitude into consideration when maping things. I built a spreadsheet with imputs for engine size, VE, and atmospheric pressure and plots pressure ratios according to RPMs.
 
Yes...but your an engineer (well...so am I...but)...dumb it down a little.

Everyone always wants just a rule of thumb...so I threw one out there.
 
Yes...but your an engineer (well...so am I...but)...dumb it down a little.

Everyone always wants just a rule of thumb...so I threw one out there.

I made a little calculator with inputs for: VE, Atmospheric Pressure, Max RPM, "spool" RPM, and Engine Size. It then tabulates corrected engine flow (both volume and mass), and the associated PR for the flow rate. Nothing fancy by any means...
 
This is because mass flow is always constant at all parts of the system from first stage inducer right to the intake manifold inlet (assuming no additional mass is added via water injection or similar). What is not constant throughout is Volume flow.

Which leads to the inevitable posting of a somewhat arrogant remark on my part...

The compressor maps are wrong. :eek:

Volume flow rate is dependent on pressure and temperature...

Mass, is as stated, constant.
 
Volume flow rate is dependent on pressure and temperature...

Mass, is as stated, constant.


Yet....

A compressor on a flowbench at ____ shaft rpm and ____ PR will move ____lbs/min @ ___ degrees ambient and @ ____ psia ambient.

This test will coincidentally also equate to a specific CFM flow as well.

Here's a point to ponder, if mass is the constant here...

You take the exact same scenario of shaft speed and PR that you tested before. Now only change two things, the pressure and temperature of the room in which the test is performed. Double the ambient temperature and double the ambient pressure and re-record your mass flow reading.

Do you suppose that the mass flow will be the exact same when the exact same shaft speed and PR are tested? As you stated that mass was constant and volume depended on pressure and temp?

Of course not. The reality is that mass flow would be around half what you recorded the first time, whereas the volume flow would still match what you had noted on test one.

In reality the mass flow is the one dependent on temp/pressure while CFM flow is not. If you think doubling the ambient temperature and pressure is impractical, I would urge you to consider the conditions found at the second stage compressor inlet for a moment.






So help me out here...

The axes of the compressor map are PR for Y, and either mass or volume flow for X. A third reference comes in the way of the shaft speed arcs on the graph itself.



Here's my point, plain and simple:

For any given PR/Shaft speed point that I plot on any available compressor map, there will be a single point on the X axis that coincides with this plotted point. Many people who consider themselves "fluent" in the language of the mechanical engineer will assert that mass flow is the correct value to be placed on that X axis to denote compressor outflow for any given PR/shaft speed.

However, as I have stated more than once in this thread, if mass is the correct unit of measure for compressor wheel flow performance, then why does the map become completely useless as soon as you begin dealing with a compressor working under non STP conditions, such as is the case with any second stage compressor?



Or, another way of reasoning out this issue as I see it:

Having noted the max flow for each respective wheel as shown on their compressor maps, while my first stage compressor is capable of moving ~140lbs/min, my second stage is only capable of flowing ~72lbs/min max.

This should raise concern, I would hope. Because either one of two subsequent issues must be addressed in that case.

1. Is my second stage being operated at a point around two times the maximum value shown on it's compressor map at all times when I am running WOT in my truck? If so, what in God's name is the shaft speed at that time? Since ~72lbs/min occurs at a shaft speed of 110,000rpm, if I was fully utilizing my first stage compressor, and moving roughly twice that mass through the system, am I to assume that the second stage compressor is then approaching 200,000rpm? I think we can all rule that out right now.

2. If I pull in ~140lbs/min on the first stage, and the second stage is only capable of moving ~72lbs/min at max flow (so says the compressor map) then is it possible that close to 70lbs/min of atmosphere is consumed by the system somewhere between the first stage compressor inlet and the second stage compressor inlet? I don't think we need to delve into E = MC^2 to see the magnitude of nuclear reactor that would entail... So no, the mass is not disappearing between stages, so we still cannot explain how the second stage is moving roughly twice the max flow listed on it's map.



My rationale, as I've made clear in the thread, is that the wheel is being incorrectly measured in terms of mass flow vs shaft rpm and PR, when in fact, the wheel is quite literally moving ____ CFM for any given operational point, and the ones creating these maps are incorrectly looking at mass flow, and labeling as such.

This is only made more clear in the fact that the entire mess above, that is unexplainable (at least by me) in terms of mass flow maximum for a second stage wheel, is simultaneously Perfectly explained if the wheel is instead viewed in terms of volume flow. All of a sudden compressor flows make perfect sense, and plotting the operational point for the second stage goes from a point 8 inches to the right of the paper/screen to a point coincidentally right where you expected one to be. And coincidentally, right to a point where outlet temps and shaft speeds are right where they should have been all along.


Why are compressor maps labeled in terms of mass flow when it appears an incorrect indicator of wheel performance? I have no idea. Maybe the engineers in the room can shed light on it.

Fwiw, I find it completely possible that mass flow is indeed correct. I merely have no way to show it, nor explain it, while to date, volume flow appears to work flawlessly in the absence of such an explanation.
 
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