Fire rings... question...

angelic0-

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May 9, 2009
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So... now i have a full OEM Cummins rebuild kit....

all gaskets, piston rings... everything !!!

I am looking to buy fire rings, can someone point me in the right direction...

and will i not be using the fire rings with the head gasket already purchased ???

I have also heard using fire rings with stock headbolts can be better than using them with my studs ??

is this not total bull**** ???

Green on fire rings, never done them before....

What all is done when installing, machining of the head ??? please explain thoroughly...

help and advice needed, thanks in advance...
 
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Fire rings are good for the track. O rings are good for the street. Fire rings are not good at taking heat cycles. On a drag truck it does not matter. On a street truck it does. As a thought some high hp guys are using head studs without any rings at all.
 
I blew a head gasket @ 100psi.. not sure when it blew.... or at what pressure, but it happened at my only 100psi run...

Guess i will want o-rings then, are they easier or harder to install ??
 
I have been running fire rings with head studs, daily driven. No problem at all yet. I know a few other people with the same setup, yet to have a problem. I've seen one engine blow a head gasket when o-ringed. Never personally seen a fire ring setup blow a gasket.... Just saying.... To answer your other questions, yes the head has to be machined and you can't use your OEM head gasket with fire rings. The after market fire ring headgasket has no rings on the head gasket, you put 6 individual, bigger fire rings around each cylinder. You have a ring cut around your head to basically hold the fire ring in position/seal better. And please, do not use factory head bolts or all your work will be usless
 
Fire Rings here with no Issues yet. Haisley for a fire ring kit.

To my understanding the guys with issues on the street and firerings was caused by improper cut grooves causing the ring to actually vibrate and crack. Materials have been changed to help with this, as well as only have a reputable shop such as keating or haisley cut the grooves. IMO
 
To answer your question.

A separate head gasket will have to be purchased for the use of fire rings.
The stock head gaskets come with crush rings in the gasket which typically are used for the oring to crush against with oringing the head.

Also look into a radius cut for fire rings. And proper protrusion is key, measure ur gasket, rings and accommodate for crush in the gasket .

Clinton
 
Also, use studs. I believe in true surfaces and proper machining is key , alot if botch machinists out there.
But the the drive pressure in twins is normally higher if not controlled. Good insurance.
 
Ran a single O-Ring and studs on the street for 6 years with no issues.

Jim
 
I ran fire rings on the street for about 4 years with out issues and one day it went poof! spit part of the fire ring into the cylinder and banged around enough in there I ended up changing out the piston. turns out it was a botched machine job, the guy i took the head to after the fact machined the head completely flat and the rings only disappered on one side....I decided to run it anyway. since all that happened about 2 yrs ago, I pulled the engine and am considering a new head....any suggestions?
 
thats crappy ...... and man its expencive to fix a major screw up like that ... not only $$$$ but time too ... hope you were able to charge accordingly
 
Fire Rings here with no Issues yet. Haisley for a fire ring kit.

To my understanding the guys with issues on the street and firerings was caused by improper cut grooves causing the ring to actually vibrate and crack. Materials have been changed to help with this, as well as only have a reputable shop such as keating or haisley cut the grooves. IMO

Last I herd Haisley only does there personal heads. They send the rest to Nyes Auto in Muncie. I had Nyes fire ring my head and used a Haisley gasket and have been good for four years. Daily driven truck as well as pull alot of trailers. I agree that a good machine shop is the key to making them last. The gasket was a stock Cummins gasket with the crush rings cut out.
 
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gonna ask what might seem like a stupid Q .... can u O-ring and fire ring at the same time or is that just redundant ? ... just curious

been thingking about adding the insurance and having mine O-ringed ... even though I plan on about 4-450ish unless I ...... "Accidently" mare more LOL ..... right ??
 
My own experience with my truck, a daily driver 500ish RWHP 12-valve 5x14, s362, benched 160 pump, etc:

Blew stock gasket, replaced with gasket and ARP 2000 studs. Blew that one in less than a year. Blew that one and replaced with bolts snd another gasket, using super secret voodoo torque procedure from 2 top drag racers of the day who are still well respected here. blew that one. Replaced again, back to studs, trying another cold/hot retorque procedure. This was over about a 18 month period.

Had new head fire ringed by reputable well known national shop, then blew that gasket twice with 12mm studs (ARP 2000) within a few months.

Installed another gasket and fire ring set #3, and machined block and heads for 14mm studs. Finally, over 7 years later, I lifted it again with 14mm H-11 studs.

Things I learned:

1). On my truck, 12mm ARP 2000 studs were not enough to crush the fire rings. I actually talked to them yesterday and they said the newer custom age stuff would work (it was not out when I did mine).

2) no one's special retorque procedure with bolts or studs fixed my problem, and I got good advice from guys that win with their trucks *shrug*.

3) you are supposed to retorque fire rings regularly as stated above. I agree, but because I was lazy, I never did even once and it lasted for years. Maybe I got lucky?

4) ARP says they don't recommend retorques, but readily admit they have little to no knowledge on fire rings - just fasteners with normal gaskets. They also say that the newer custom aged material is much more corrosion resistant (see below for why you care)

5) what ultimately killed mine was corrosion. Some of the H-11 studs looked pitted pretty bad when I pulled it apart - one had even split in half and was just sitting broken in the hole... The question of the day is how moisture got in there to corrode it, but again, 7 years is a long time according to everyone I talked to, for running a setup like mine with basically no effort/issues.

What I took away from my experience was basically fire rings are the ultimate, but (intentionally) more maintenance intensive as well. If I was building my truck today, using it as I do with similar goals (700-800 hp, Dyno, daily driver, and occasional off road/sand dime climbing), I would NOT fire ring it or put bigger studs in. I would use ARPs custom age 12mm stuff with a good MLS gasket, or o-rings. These choices were not available to 12 valve guys 7-8 years ago.

I will put mine back together again and use better studs, but I would leave fire rings to track only stuff. They are a PITA to install right, more maintenance intensive because of intolerance for heat cycles, and can be very expense when you add up the machine work, very expensive studs (if you need 14s) and expensive gaskets and rings.

Just my experience. Hope my lengthy review will help some of you guys trying to decide. Gasket technology and fasteners have come a long ways in 10 years.
 
My understanding is that they do not make a MLS gasket for the 12V at all just for the 24V and CR's ........
I was thinking O-ring and 12mm arp's ... making 4-450 ... more "Accidnetly" LOL ... could happen ..... LOL
 
Did you ever consider checking your block? And since when do they make a mls gasket for a 12v?

My own experience with my truck, a daily driver 500ish RWHP 12-valve 5x14, s362, benched 160 pump, etc:

Blew stock gasket, replaced with gasket and ARP 2000 studs. Blew that one in less than a year. Blew that one and replaced with bolts snd another gasket, using super secret voodoo torque procedure from 2 top drag racers of the day who are still well respected here. blew that one. Replaced again, back to studs, trying another cold/hot retorque procedure. This was over about a 18 month period.

Had new head fire ringed by reputable well known national shop, then blew that gasket twice with 12mm studs (ARP 2000) within a few months.

Installed another gasket and fire ring set #3, and machined block and heads for 14mm studs. Finally, over 7 years later, I lifted it again with 14mm H-11 studs.

Things I learned:

1). On my truck, 12mm ARP 2000 studs were not enough to crush the fire rings. I actually talked to them yesterday and they said the newer custom age stuff would work (it was not out when I did mine).

2) no one's special retorque procedure with bolts or studs fixed my problem, and I got good advice from guys that win with their trucks *shrug*.

3) you are supposed to retorque fire rings regularly as stated above. I agree, but because I was lazy, I never did even once and it lasted for years. Maybe I got lucky?

4) ARP says they don't recommend retorques, but readily admit they have little to no knowledge on fire rings - just fasteners with normal gaskets. They also say that the newer custom aged material is much more corrosion resistant (see below for why you care)

5) what ultimately killed mine was corrosion. Some of the H-11 studs looked pitted pretty bad when I pulled it apart - one had even split in half and was just sitting broken in the hole... The question of the day is how moisture got in there to corrode it, but again, 7 years is a long time according to everyone I talked to, for running a setup like mine with basically no effort/issues.

What I took away from my experience was basically fire rings are the ultimate, but (intentionally) more maintenance intensive as well. If I was building my truck today, using it as I do with similar goals (700-800 hp, Dyno, daily driver, and occasional off road/sand dime climbing), I would NOT fire ring it or put bigger studs in. I would use ARPs custom age 12mm stuff with a good MLS gasket, or o-rings. These choices were not available to 12 valve guys 7-8 years ago.

I will put mine back together again and use better studs, but I would leave fire rings to track only stuff. They are a PITA to install right, more maintenance intensive because of intolerance for heat cycles, and can be very expense when you add up the machine work, very expensive studs (if you need 14s) and expensive gaskets and rings.

Just my experience. Hope my lengthy review will help some of you guys trying to decide. Gasket technology and fasteners have come a long ways in 10 years.
 
I quit paying attention to the cutting edge performance scene for while (prob 3-4 years), and don't keep up like I used to, but I know Cometic was working on one at one time, and that some guys were trying to figure out if/how to use a cr gasket on older blocks. Since guys have used newer heads on older blocks I figured it'd been done - even if not "publicly"? I honestly haven't had a head gasket discussion for several years about 12-valve trucks.

Yes, the block and head were both checked for flat by myself with a Snap-On straight edge, Scheid (head only), and another local machine shop (head only), and both were less than .001 across the entire length, both ways (x-pattern). Head was mag'd. For what it's worth I know some places stopped fire ringing for only 12mm stud equipped trucks for the above reasons around the time I was having issues. Not sure if its still that way or not.

I can also tell you that this last time, all the rings were all crushed exactly right (.088) all the way around. When I had 12s, again when only arp 2000 were out, the rings never crushed all the way. I could always find spots that weren't uniformly flat on the rings.

Again, just relating my experience. I recognize that not everyone has had such bad luck as me. I'm sure when I put it together again ( with fire rings and a new set of 14s) I will have no trouble for several years again.

I (and everyone I talked to at the time) was always surprised that it took 14s and fire rings to seal what I consider a relatively mild, pretty conventional setup. But it is what it is.
 
I too have been looking and talking to lots of peeps and no mls for the 12valves as of yet ..... the problem with the cr style is that the oil passages don't line up and requires some mods ....... I just wann do it once and be done ...m until o decide to nust of course ...... LOL
 
Today i pulled my head off due to a miss in one cylinder, thinking it was a bent valve, turns out 4 of my 6 fire rings were broke and fell into my engine. My block is fire ringed not my head. i am running arp studs with a haisley head gasket and fire rings. Mine is a DD and has been running great for about 2 years until now, not sure what caused the failure.
 
Today i pulled my head off due to a miss in one cylinder, thinking it was a bent valve, turns out 4 of my 6 fire rings were broke and fell into my engine. My block is fire ringed not my head. i am running arp studs with a haisley head gasket and fire rings. Mine is a DD and has been running great for about 2 years until now, not sure what caused the failure.

Damn! That blows. Any damage to the pistons/walls?
 
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