Freeze plug solutions? What say you????

[White Knight]

Has anyone tried using a sleeve over the water pump pulley to create an underdrive effect? That seems to me like a much better solution to reducing water flow then messing with the fins.

 

[inline6359]

So what is the ultimate choice to combat a blown freez plug AS WELL as the above picture with the bypass kit the couldnt move the coolant fast enough?

Electric waterpump, combined with a bypass kit? Larger bypass kit?


Instead of threading the freez plug holes and putting plugs in them, can you thread the hole and just install a fitting with a hose as large as allowable and direct the coolant back to the resivior? If you understand what i mean....

 

[zstroken]

Has anyone tried using a sleeve over the water pump pulley to create an underdrive effect? That seems to me like a much better solution to reducing water flow then messing with the fins.

If you look at the pump and the ones with the cone on them, they can really build pressure, giving the extra clearance allows the pump to not build as much pressure.

 

[White Knight]

If you look at the pump and the ones with the cone on them, they can really build pressure, giving the extra clearance allows the pump to not build as much pressure.

I'm saying if you slow the pump down by using a larger pulley you would effectively reduce the flow. Less flow wold result in less pressure in this case.

 

[zstroken]

I'm saying if you slow the pump down by using a larger pulley you would effectively reduce the flow. Less flow wold result in less pressure in this case.

Yes, but with pumps they can have a pump curve and usually they are not linear. So you could ramp the pressure up really fast, say 90% pressure at 50% rpm. So you would ahve to double the size of the pulley to make it slow down. I am just guessing on this.

Nipping the fins work very well and is very easy.

 

[White Knight]

Pressure is dictated by restriction to flow. Change the restriction or the pump flow and pressure will drop. You don't directly deal with the pressure, you deal with the flow which changes the pressure. Clipping the fins allows a route around the fins reducing the pump flow and efficiency. This related drop in flow results in less pressure.
I don't know what pump curve you are talking about. If I had to guess I think what you mean is: because of the type of water pump used the flow vs pressure is not linear and flow will drop off as pressure increases. I'm not sure how that is really relevant though so I'm lost on that one.

I'm just suggesting an alternative. There are many ways to skin a cat. I personally don't want to tamper with the internals of a water pump on a street truck if I don't have to.

You could also enlarge to line that bleeds around the t-stat but I wouldn't expect huge gains with the size of those fittings.

 

[soulezoo]

Like RonA said above, you can't count on the bypass system. It happened to me anyway, and Ron was there to see it.

 

[Torque Monkey]

I have geiven this so much thought over the last couple of years that I think my head is about to explode.

I have gone to the point of building my own thermostat bypass, wich does not appear to be adequate. Everytime I try to wrap my head around this I come up with the same problem....

Added pressure in the cylinder head (most likely between cyl. 5 and 6) is what is causing the freeze plugs to blow. If it were pressure in the hole system it should cause the radiator cap to pop and the resivoir should fill. This does not appear to happen.

This added pressure in my mind, is also helping to keep the water from boiling. The higher the pressure the higher the temp without boiling. Once the freeze plug pops it is like pulling the cork on a champagne bottle. Now if you reduce the pressure by clipping the water pump or using a bypass this gives the water a higher chance of localized boiling around the cylinder walls and in the head were it is closest to the combustion chamber. Once that happens you have a pressure spike that will easily overcome the bypass and the radiator due to the distance it has to travel and the rate of expansion.

I really like the idea that Inline6359 and I know Lazarsmith has something very similiar to this idea. However, I think that maybe the distance that the water/steam has to move from the back of the head to the res. could also be an issue. I was thinking that maybe a second tank mounted as close to the back of the head as possible, but still high enough to drain by gravity into the coolant res. would be the idea. Maybe even relocating the res. closer to the back of the head might be the ticket.

I may have to kick this around awhile.

What I am thinking is this....

The coolant bypass that I have right now is set at 25 psi (diff. etween the radiator and the head.

I believe that adding a valve to the back of the head using the block off plate several have shown and mountina pressure relief valve to it set at say 50 psi (diff. from atmoshpere) that would discahrge to a tank mounted toward the back of the head with as big a hose as possible (within reason). This tank would then gravity drain back to the resivoir.

This will not stop the water from boiling in the head, however it will control it (I think). Then when the pass is over and the head and block start to cool, the coolant system will form a vacuum that will pull the coolant back in the system through the radiator cap.

The water will still boil, but it is far better than losing all the water from the system with it being so hot.

I guess this is what happens when you pull 1000 HP out of a 3000 HP engine.

For the record, if I understand correctly this is exactly what Lazarsmith's system does. I don't want to be accused of stealing someone else idea.:badidea:

 

[inline6359]

Would it be possible to thread the freez plug hole run a fitting and a line to this pump, and use the pump when the engine is under extreme load, or to just help circulate coolant if you want.


let me know if im on the right track....

 

[j-rod]

Yes, but with pumps they can have a pump curve and usually they are not linear. So you could ramp the pressure up really fast, say 90% pressure at 50% rpm. So you would ahve to double the size of the pulley to make it slow down. I am just guessing on this.

I don't know what pump curve you are talking about. If I had to guess I think what you mean is: because of the type of water pump used the flow vs pressure is not linear and flow will drop off as pressure increases. I'm not sure how that is really relevant though so I'm lost on that one.

What zstroken is saying is he thinks the relationship between the pump RPM and pressure is not linear. Basically if you were driving it at 2000 RPM with an output pressure of 20 psi, you wouldn't be at 40 psi at 4000 RPM. Changing the size of the pulley may not be effective in that it may take a good size pulley - double or triple the size of the existing water pump pulley to get the effective pressure drop that you would be trying to achieve.

Hopefully that made it a little clearer.

 

[White Knight]

What zstroken is saying is he thinks the relationship between the pump RPM and pressure is not linear. Basically if you were driving it at 2000 RPM with an output pressure of 20 psi, you wouldn't be at 40 psi at 4000 RPM. Changing the size of the pulley may not be effective in that it may take a good size pulley - double or triple the size of the existing water pump pulley to get the effective pressure drop that you would be trying to achieve.

Hopefully that made it a little clearer.

Of course it isn't. Pumps pump volume not pressure. Unless you give that volume a place to go the pressure will increase dramatically until it finds some place to go. Fluids aren't compressible so there has be be a place for it to go.


I thought about it some more and ran the numbers on over-sizing the water pump pulley. While there is a lot of room to upsize the pulley without also increasing the diameter of the pulley on the dampener it would take a very large pulley to get the flow back where we need it. Any decrease in speed would certainly help, but its not going to be an end all fix. So I'll forget it and keep thinking of other solutions. :bang

 

[White Knight]

Added pressure in the cylinder head (most likely between cyl. 5 and 6) is what is causing the freeze plugs to blow. If it were pressure in the hole system it should cause the radiator cap to pop and the resivoir should fill. This does not appear to happen.

Good ideas. Something similar may be what has to be done.

Although, I don't believe the radiator cap is in the picture because the pressure buildup is behind the thermostat. If you could get that excess volume around the t-stat you may or may not find that the cap is capable of flowing enough volume to regulate the pressure. I think that if you can move fluid around the thermostat quick enough to keep the pressures in check you would have a chance at keeping the plugs in place.

On a side note: I hate that 15min for editing rule. My first post did not come out as I intended it.

 

[Torque Monkey]

Good ideas. Something similar may be what has to be done.

Although, I don't believe the radiator cap is in the picture because the pressure buildup is behind the thermostat. If you could get that excess volume around the t-stat you may or may not find that the cap is capable of flowing enough volume to regulate the pressure. I think that if you can move fluid around the thermostat quick enough to keep the pressures in check you would have a chance at keeping the plugs in place.

On a side note: I hate that 15min for editing rule. My first post did not come out as I intended it.

Exactly.


Here is the part that has me a little baffled. How come when you lift the head the first indication is that the resivoir is full (at last from what I have seen) because the radiator cap has released the pressure from the combustion gas? That gas also has to pass through the thermostat.

I believe is that the cylinder head is the culprit, not the thermostat. I believe that the water cannot flow from the area around cylinders #5 and #6, for water ever reason, maybe casting design. I believe that cylinders #1, #2, #3 and #4 have no problem. Would that be why most of the freeze plugs that pop are near the back of the engine? Also why cylinder #5 and #6 seem to run a little hotter than the rest.

I was thinking about this as I was fishing tonight and came up with another question. If you clip the water pump and slow down the velocity of the water moving through the engine, this will give the water more time to absorb heat from the combustion chamber. Raising water temps. Won't this cause the water to boil even worse? Not only that but you would also be lowering the pressure.

I mean the more I think about it this really is a catch 22.:bang

 

[Sandman9]

you can give toxic diesel a call. they make freeze plug covers made out of aluminum. they are polished and have there logo carved in them

 

[White Knight]

Exactly.


Here is the part that has me a little baffled. How come when you lift the head the first indication is that the resivoir is full (at last from what I have seen) because the radiator cap has released the pressure from the combustion gas? That gas also has to pass through the thermostat.

I believe is that the cylinder head is the culprit, not the thermostat. I believe that the water cannot flow from the area around cylinders #5 and #6, for water ever reason, maybe casting design. I believe that cylinders #1, #2, #3 and #4 have no problem. Would that be why most of the freeze plugs that pop are near the back of the engine? Also why cylinder #5 and #6 seem to run a little hotter than the rest.

I was thinking about this as I was fishing tonight and came up with another question. If you clip the water pump and slow down the velocity of the water moving through the engine, this will give the water more time to absorb heat from the combustion chamber. Raising water temps. Won't this cause the water to boil even worse? Not only that but you would also be lowering the pressure.

I mean the more I think about it this really is a catch 22.:bang

Very interesting idea, I like how you are thinking. It is very possible that this could be the case. Almost makes me wish I had a 24v so it would be easy to put pressure and temperature gauges in the front and back of the head and see what differences there are if any.

The fluid velocity issue is easily solved with the extreme rpms that a p-pump will turn, but for the electronically governed engines it could be an issue. Not something I would want to do on a daily driver.

I think your point about additional pressure and boiling is good, I've never thought about it like that. Definitely takes a lot of wiggle room out for any solution. :kick:

 

[Torque Monkey]

Very interesting idea, I like how you are thinking. It is very possible that this could be the case. Almost makes me wish I had a 24v so it would be easy to put pressure and temperature gauges in the front and back of the head and see what differences there are if any.

The fluid velocity issue is easily solved with the extreme rpms that a p-pump will turn, but for the electronically governed engines it could be an issue. Not something I would want to do on a daily driver.

I think your point about additional pressure and boiling is good, I've never thought about it like that. Definitely takes a lot of wiggle room out for any solution. :kick:

LOL hence my problem.*bdh*

 

[Blazonic]

seen these in another thread. funny thing is I just put two plugs in because they where starting to leak.

 

[impmouse]

was looking at my head last night ,,,looking at the left side in the very back theres a pipe plug there whats that for ... if its pluged off for the cooling system what if we put a fitting on it and do a bypass there and along with the back of the block ... would that help with the pressure of the cooling system?????????

 

[impmouse]

see the plug i'm talking about

 

[dzlfarmboy]

see the plug i'm talking about

Thats usually where the coolant temp sensor goes but on your 98 12v it's a 1/2" NPT hole under the intake plenum up front more.

? Who has had pressure gauge on the cooling system under different load conditions? What kind of pressure are these things making?

I just blew my rear one out at the track last nite.

And as stated earlier, I dont think the pressure can pop the rad cap cause the T stat prob isn't open when we are running these at WOT for 12 sec runs at the track but, when some people have HG issues pressurizing the overflow tank it's prob during a run or pull on the street when its at operating temp and open.

Thinking about just running a relief valve from the back of the block to the overflow inlet, just would need to get the spring pressure right.