Hone pattern, rockwell hardness, ring tension

Fahlin Racing

Fahlin Racing

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So its been said that the smoother you hone your wall surface, you increase your surface area,the more surface area you retain less oil to lubricate and in turn, ring tension must be set. Not sure how many pay attention to how far they open the rings up when installing on the pistons but the farther you open them to clear the piston you are actually putting more tension against the wall of the cylinder. How much is too much for a diesel?

As far as the hone pattern, your block, being aftermarket or factory the rockwell hardness is an important thing to know when squeezing out those extra ponies. I realize this portion will obviously be determined by some R&D but its one more area I dont see besides engine builders conversing about.

If we retain some more oil without harming our combustion event we increase the lubrication of the piston's skirts as well, further reducing power loss.

Its time for a beer. :pop:
 
The hone holds microscopic beads of oil on the cylinder so you wouldn't want to hone it too smooth. Couldn't tell ya on stretching the rings, I'd figure the shape would be oblong making more friction in some spot than others.

I'm not sure if most do this but when I was heavy into the MX scene we used to do our top end rebuilds with a fresh hone, zero oil on the cylinder or piston, and total seal dry lubricant to seat the rings while you cycle the piston a couple hundred times. Give her 1 heat cycle, cool overnight, then let it rip up and down big hills to seat the rings. We got substantially more compression out of them doing this.
 
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In all of the training I've had, you don't increase ring tension. Once its produced, that's it. Gap is a different story.

You aren't going to increase oil retention on the cylinder wall without changing the oil being used and how its used. Jets and drilled rods would be more affective there IMO.

As was said, smooth walls are a Decrease in surface area. Honing increases the surface area by creating asparities (sp) on the wall surface.

From my Not-So-Smart phone
 
"as was said, smooth walls are a Decrease in surface area. Honing increases the surface area by creating asparities (sp) on the wall surface." Quote

This is completely wrong. But smooth walls after a certain point are no good for a couple reasons.
 
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Not to be debbie downer but I dont see this thread going anywhere. I would say I could count on one hand the number of people that actually have tested anything like this on these engines. And they dont get one compd LOL
 
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Its still an interesting viewpoint on engine building as a science though Lenahan.

I was intending to increase it all-out ring tension, however, too little compared to too much with oil contamination in the chamber in relation to creating the best seal with the least amount of tension. In addition to cross-hatch pattern 120 degree, 60 degree grit used to hone and whatever it may be. Iron rings, moly rings yada yada.

Matty, would you care to explain some more?
 
Straight6roar wrote:
I'm not sure if most do this but when I was heavy into the MX scene we used to do our top end rebuilds with a fresh hone, zero oil on the cylinder or piston, and total seal dry lubricant to seat the rings while you cycle the piston a couple hundred times. Give her 1 heat cycle, cool overnight, then let it rip up and down big hills to seat the rings. We got substantially more compression out of them doing this.
Click to expand...

Interesting.
 
matty169 said:
"as was said, smooth walls are a Decrease in surface area. Honing increases the surface area by creating asparities (sp) on the wall surface." Quote

This is completely wrong. But smooth walls after a certain point are no good for a couple reasons.
Click to expand...

Its not good enough to point a finger. You have to say why the logic is flawed.

From my Not-So-Smart phone
 
Fahlin Racing said:
Article by Joe Mondello
http://www.utterpower.com/mondello.htm

Rockwell Hardness from wikipedia
Rockwell scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

This is a great read.


How does one account for thermal distortion of the cylinder wall during operation?

The thrust side of the piston/skirt will always suffer from heat soaking when compared to other areas of the cylinder.

Coolant inlet and flow will affect this. Harmonics will affect this.

Don't take what I'm saying as contradictory. Just curiosity.
Except for matty169. I demand proof from you :)
From my Not-So-Smart phone
 
If you are talking about stock Cummins pistons and rings, keep in mind the top ring is a keystone style ring.

Paul
 
paulb said:
If you are talking about stock Cummins pistons and rings, keep in mind the top ring is a keystone style ring.

Paul
Click to expand...

I had this in mind when I mentioned the tension "setting"

From my Not-So-Smart phone
 
This is just an example biggy, no disrespect meant. However, take a .5 in.square piece of steel and set it on a flat surface o,r if shaped to fit, inside a cylinder. Now, when you hone that surface that the square is sitting against you are creating ridges(the whole point of honing). These ridges are high spots that the steel square is resting on, thereby reducing the surface area making contact with the square. Now, if you make that surface flat and the square is flat you have complete contact(surface are of physical contact between piston ring and cylinder wall being the same idea).
Try this. Take 2 squares of smooth glass. Put a few drops of oil on one and set the other one on top. Now try to pull them apart(you cant). Try that same experiment with a rough surface on one of the squares and you can pull them apart. I know, thats just a crude example.
UNLESS I COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTOOD WHAT YOU WERE SAYING. Then, sorry, my bad.
 
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Fahlin, you looking to do Rockwell testing or something? If you are and need a Rockwell tester, p.m. me. I have 2 of them and I dont use either.
 
OK......

Fahlin Racing said:
So its been said that the smoother you hone your wall surface, you increase your surface area,the more surface area you retain less oil to lubricate and in turn, ring tension must be set. Not sure how many pay attention to how far they open the rings up when installing on the pistons but the farther you open them to clear the piston you are actually putting more tension against the wall of the cylinder. How much is too much for a diesel?

As far as the hone pattern, your block, being aftermarket or factory the rockwell hardness is an important thing to know when squeezing out those extra ponies. I realize this portion will obviously be determined by some R&D but its one more area I dont see besides engine builders conversing about.

If we retain some more oil without harming our combustion event we increase the lubrication of the piston's skirts as well, further reducing power loss.

Its time for a beer. :pop:
Click to expand...


You cant have a smooth cylinder wall, if that is what you are eluding to.
As for more oil on the cylinder wall, that is the job of the oil control ring. Most people probably have no idea how important that is and to have the correct amount of oil left by the oil control ring. Increasing ring tension to exert more pressure against the cylinder wall is almost never good. Matter of fact, for more HP you usually want to reduce ring tension as much as possible without causing other issues.
You cant set ring tension by physically opening the ring end gap(if you mean by bending/flexing the ring open larger.) It will no longer be round and will create weak spots in the ring, besides having uneven pressure.
Rockwell of the cylinder wall or ring pack? One kinda determines the requirements of the other.
 
lenahan05 said:
Not to be debbie downer but I dont see this thread going anywhere. I would say I could count on one hand the number of people that actually have tested anything like this on these engines. And they dont get one compd LOL
Click to expand...

I would say the hone is just to seat the rings and you dont have to even run an engine to do this. Guys wouldnt coat the cylinder walls, rings, and pistons if smoother didnt make a difference. Or maybe its just some marketing bs to make some extra money.
 
Not sure what your saying, but the hone pattern is for alot more than seating the rings.
 
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