HP difference between different p-pumps

smknram

smknram

"ADICTED"
Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
187
I was curious if anyone had any type info on horsepower gain by simply swapping pumps. I realize there are many variables to that question but for the purpose of the question say you have a non-benched 160 that is at 500 HP with pump, injector, dv, turbo setup and then you swap to a non-benched 215 with the exact same setup and the only variable that changed was the pump. Anyone have an idea of what horsepower increase would be?

Same question going to a 175 or 180 if anyone would have a clue.
 
Most maxed 160 or 175 pumps flow between 450 and 500 cc's with radical full cut DV's, etc. Their problem is the poor refill time of the pump cam so they quickly lose flow potential in the 3000 RPM and higher range.

Most maxed 180 pumps are the same 450 to 500 cc's with radical full cut DV's, but they have the better factory pump cam so they don't lose 25% of their flow potential at 3000 rpm and 50% at 4000 rpm.

Most maxed 215 pumps flow 575 to 650 cc's with radical full cut DV's, they have the better factory cam so they flow well into the upper RPM range and when setup correctly, they advance timing at higher throttle positions which makes them great on the top end!

1.5HP per CC is a great rear wheel power estimate for a well tuned standard 12mm pump (160, 180, 215, etc.) That means 750 HP max for the smaller pumps and 1000 HP max for a 215 pump. Keep in mind with the 160 and 175 pumps, you need to make peak power below 3000 rpm and preferably down near 2500 rpm so you'll need a turbo setup that spools fast and makes power down low (think fast spooling compound turbos) to get good power numbers from a 160 or 175hp pump.

Some exceptionally tuned/tested/perfectly matched injectors/ etc. will make closer to 1.75 HP per CC of fuel on a 12mm pump but I like to use 1.5HP/CC for original design/sizing work.
 
I went from a local maxed 160 to a maxed 215 from seth and it made a huge difference both set at 20* one of the best things I've done. Out performed my old benched 180 at 28*. Much cleaner running.
 
Big Blue24 said:
Most maxed 160 or 175 pumps flow between 450 and 500 cc's with radical full cut DV's, etc. Their problem is the poor refill time of the pump cam so they quickly lose flow potential in the 3000 RPM and higher range.

Most maxed 180 pumps are the same 450 to 500 cc's with radical full cut DV's, but they have the better factory pump cam so they don't lose 25% of their flow potential at 3000 rpm and 50% at 4000 rpm.

Most maxed 215 pumps flow 575 to 650 cc's with radical full cut DV's, they have the better factory cam so they flow well into the upper RPM range and when setup correctly, they advance timing at higher throttle positions which makes them great on the top end!

1.5HP per CC is a great rear wheel power estimate for a well tuned standard 12mm pump (160, 180, 215, etc.) That means 750 HP max for the smaller pumps and 1000 HP max for a 215 pump. Keep in mind with the 160 and 175 pumps, you need to make peak power below 3000 rpm and preferably down near 2500 rpm so you'll need a turbo setup that spools fast and makes power down low (think fast spooling compound turbos) to get good power numbers from a 160 or 175hp pump.

Some exceptionally tuned/tested/perfectly matched injectors/ etc. will make closer to 1.75 HP per CC of fuel on a 12mm pump but I like to use 1.5HP/CC for original design/sizing work.
Click to expand...

I thought the 215 pumps retarded timing at higher RPM's?
 
Big Blue24 said:
Most maxed 160 or 175 pumps flow between 450 and 500 cc's with radical full cut DV's, etc. Their problem is the poor refill time of the pump cam so they quickly lose flow potential in the 3000 RPM and higher range.

Most maxed 180 pumps are the same 450 to 500 cc's with radical full cut DV's, but they have the better factory pump cam so they don't lose 25% of their flow potential at 3000 rpm and 50% at 4000 rpm.

Most maxed 215 pumps flow 575 to 650 cc's with radical full cut DV's, they have the better factory cam so they flow well into the upper RPM range and when setup correctly, they advance timing at higher throttle positions which makes them great on the top end!

1.5HP per CC is a great rear wheel power estimate for a well tuned standard 12mm pump (160, 180, 215, etc.) That means 750 HP max for the smaller pumps and 1000 HP max for a 215 pump. Keep in mind with the 160 and 175 pumps, you need to make peak power below 3000 rpm and preferably down near 2500 rpm so you'll need a turbo setup that spools fast and makes power down low (think fast spooling compound turbos) to get good power numbers from a 160 or 175hp pump.

Some exceptionally tuned/tested/perfectly matched injectors/ etc. will make closer to 1.75 HP per CC of fuel on a 12mm pump but I like to use 1.5HP/CC for original design/sizing work.
Click to expand...

Thank you, this is great info and answered a lot for me. The whole purpose of asking is the 160 I have now is the first one I have ever delt with. I have owned and messed with many 12v's over the years but they have all been 180 and 215 pumps. I knew that the cam profile was different but didn't realize these small pumps were such a different animal. I had tried all sorts of setups with this 160 and it didn't matter what I did it just seemed to flat line and clear all smoke at 2800-3100 rpm, no matter how much fuel I put to it. I was debating on sending this pump off and getting it tuned or just finding a 180/215 pump to swap it out, thinking that something was wrong with the pump, but after reading what you said I guess it's just the nature of the small pump.

I'm still not sure what I'm going to do, the motor has been swapped into a crew cab ford (i need to update my sig) that is just going to be a street truck/ tow rig. I'm not looking to make any crazy HP numbers with it, but I would like a solid 500-600 HP. A small set of compounds or maybe even triple 35's are going to be the turbo setup. I want quick spool no matter what, but being able to keep making power above 2800 would definitely be nice.
 
Big Blue24 said:
Most maxed 160 or 175 pumps flow between 450 and 500 cc's with radical full cut DV's, etc. Their problem is the poor refill time of the pump cam so they quickly lose flow potential in the 3000 RPM and higher range.

Most maxed 180 pumps are the same 450 to 500 cc's with radical full cut DV's, but they have the better factory pump cam so they don't lose 25% of their flow potential at 3000 rpm and 50% at 4000 rpm.

Most maxed 215 pumps flow 575 to 650 cc's with radical full cut DV's, they have the better factory cam so they flow well into the upper RPM range and when setup correctly, they advance timing at higher throttle positions which makes them great on the top end!

1.5HP per CC is a great rear wheel power estimate for a well tuned standard 12mm pump (160, 180, 215, etc.) That means 750 HP max for the smaller pumps and 1000 HP max for a 215 pump. Keep in mind with the 160 and 175 pumps, you need to make peak power below 3000 rpm and preferably down near 2500 rpm so you'll need a turbo setup that spools fast and makes power down low (think fast spooling compound turbos) to get good power numbers from a 160 or 175hp pump.

Some exceptionally tuned/tested/perfectly matched injectors/ etc. will make closer to 1.75 HP per CC of fuel on a 12mm pump but I like to use 1.5HP/CC for original design/sizing work.
Click to expand...

How does injector size come into play here with pump flow. For example how much can you counter limited cc out put with injector size. We did 731hp with only 350cc out of a 180 pump but had 6x16s witch i think are on the big size. Sorry for the derail.
 
Big Blue24 said:
Most maxed 160 or 175 pumps flow between 450 and 500 cc's with radical full cut DV's, etc. Their problem is the poor refill time of the pump cam so they quickly lose flow potential in the 3000 RPM and higher range.

Most maxed 180 pumps are the same 450 to 500 cc's with radical full cut DV's, but they have the better factory pump cam so they don't lose 25% of their flow potential at 3000 rpm and 50% at 4000 rpm.

Most maxed 215 pumps flow 575 to 650 cc's with radical full cut DV's, they have the better factory cam so they flow well into the upper RPM range and when setup correctly, they advance timing at higher throttle positions which makes them great on the top end!

1.5HP per CC is a great rear wheel power estimate for a well tuned standard 12mm pump (160, 180, 215, etc.) That means 750 HP max for the smaller pumps and 1000 HP max for a 215 pump. Keep in mind with the 160 and 175 pumps, you need to make peak power below 3000 rpm and preferably down near 2500 rpm so you'll need a turbo setup that spools fast and makes power down low (think fast spooling compound turbos) to get good power numbers from a 160 or 175hp pump.

Some exceptionally tuned/tested/perfectly matched injectors/ etc. will make closer to 1.75 HP per CC of fuel on a 12mm pump but I like to use 1.5HP/CC for original design/sizing work.
Click to expand...


Thanks for all the info! I'm hoping my maxed out 160 pump from Seth will make me some power.
 
DDually said:
Ive thought they retarded timing for like 5 years now and never read anything that disputed it.
Click to expand...

They do retard timing, as stated in the thread linked to. I did not see it mentioned that not only is the timing advance dynamic, but also the injection rate due to the injection duration varying along with the upper helix.
 
DDually said:
Lol thats fantastic. Ive thought they retarded timing for like 5 years now and never read anything that disputed it.
Click to expand...

They retard timing at stock rack travel but once you increase rack travel then timing is advanced. Timing is advanced on the bottom end and the top end like Seth stated in the link.
 
Big Blue24 said:
Most maxed 160 or 175 pumps flow between 450 and 500 cc's with radical full cut DV's, etc. Their problem is the poor refill time of the pump cam so they quickly lose flow potential in the 3000 RPM and higher range.

Most maxed 180 pumps are the same 450 to 500 cc's with radical full cut DV's, but they have the better factory pump cam so they don't lose 25% of their flow potential at 3000 rpm and 50% at 4000 rpm.

Most maxed 215 pumps flow 575 to 650 cc's with radical full cut DV's, they have the better factory cam so they flow well into the upper RPM range and when setup correctly, they advance timing at higher throttle positions which makes them great on the top end!

1.5HP per CC is a great rear wheel power estimate for a well tuned standard 12mm pump (160, 180, 215, etc.) That means 750 HP max for the smaller pumps and 1000 HP max for a 215 pump. Keep in mind with the 160 and 175 pumps, you need to make peak power below 3000 rpm and preferably down near 2500 rpm so you'll need a turbo setup that spools fast and makes power down low (think fast spooling compound turbos) to get good power numbers from a 160 or 175hp pump.

Some exceptionally tuned/tested/perfectly matched injectors/ etc. will make closer to 1.75 HP per CC of fuel on a 12mm pump but I like to use 1.5HP/CC for original design/sizing work.
Click to expand...

What about the 190 pump? I know it never came in a Dodge but that's what I have.
 
As much I remember, the 190 hp pump from BUS or Industrial application is same as 160HP pump in Dodge application
 
Really? I was hoping/assuming the 190 at least had the better cam.
 
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