it's scary what can be found in an ECM

I really appreciate the info this thread turned into. With Amish here now.... it's done went 5 star

Why thank you, Ty. I love you too. LOL

I don't know that my dish is the best in this informational potluck of sorts, but I'm trying to get smarter along with everyone. Most of what I said was open for correction if I erred.

Cliff notes: I aint no expert. I just typed a bunch of stuff from my head and hoped it made sense. JSP could have differed greatly and set me straight; I don't know enough to argue... much... about this. :hehe:

I've had the program on my laptop for some time now... just never had the time to explore my curiosity with it. Its on my radar and will begin getting hotter as soon as they get closer to the 03-04 release. For now, I'm just trolling on occasion and trying to get smarter as time permits.
 
it makes me wish that FAST would jump into this arena...or even have someone like TS (need a BIG budget and i want royalties Dennis. LMAO ) contract FAST to adapt this to the Diesel world.

Id like to play with that on the geo!

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk
 
In what instance would you specifically want to adjust the PIDs??
Under any situation where the actual rail pressure is not matching (or at least trying to match) your desired, however, that is easier said than done of course.
You need to tweak the values so it doesn't over compensate and end up chasing it's tail, but then you also need to make sure it reacts fast enough to correct the errors.
When I did the descriptions for the RP P.I.D in both the Dmax and Cummins I tried to reword the text from the Wikipedia page on PID control. Grab a coffee or your alcoholic beverage of choice, if you make it to the bottom of that page you did better than 99% of the population. It's the kind of thing you wanted to sleep through in high school.

As a test, if you were to go and make a drastic change to all the 'P' components of the calibrations (like add 50%), when you log the rail pressure you should notice that it constantly over corrects the RP error, so the line chart will look like a sawtooth, not a smooth line with small corrections and you'll probably notice a surge as well as the RP is all over the place.

Back to the 36K table, even if the ECM could achieve that pressure, the desired pressure transition from 65mm3 to 75mm3 is nearly 50% more (18K to 36K), that would send the P.I.D loop in to a spin. Certainly the 'if in doubt max it out' tuning method is not the best choice on that table because of the problem it will cause the P.I.D control trying to correct such a massive jump. It's also why smoothing the peaky factory map can assist in keep the RP on target as you've shown in your screen shots on what you run.

Cheers,
Ross
 
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Ross, can we have your thoughts on the FCA question. Do you consider "volume" a factor in anything or is it just a control valve ?
 
I'll stay out of that one thanks, my knowledge to get in to an internet debate finishes where the connectors meet the ECM :rolleyes:
 
I'll stay out of that one thanks, my knowledge to get in to an internet debate finishes where the connectors meet the ECM :rolleyes:

Man you haven't been at this forum for long and already know Compd :Cheer:
 
It's no different to any other auto forum. We started off in LS1 tuning forums years ago, those guys will argue for 10 pages if red or blue spark plug leads are better. Anyway, for someone looking to understand what is happening with the ECM this thread has opened up some very good information.
 
Not feed forward control, Dan.

The PID function is related to feedback from the rail pressure sensor. Feedback.

I believe JSP is talking about the map being a feed forward type of data input. A very very good guestimate. Duty cycle at percent= pressure.......(Volume) Its a conversion that happens in the background behind the rail pressure table, only in reverse. The PID loop adjusts the duty cycle commanded in this prediction and smooths transition to ever changing set points.

Did I interpret that right, JSP?

.....LOL almost....

Dan, where did you experience that control? I never knew you had a background in controls.

I will answer real quick...

1. Stock ECM..yes. We have PID control tabs within the pressure tables.

2. I am with the understanding that if your pressure tables are smooth and concise that PID control/manipulation is un-necessary.

Yes smoother transitions will make it much easier for the PID as well as stock settings to the rate that the ecm can change fueling (not sure efi lets you at that). The better the Pressure regulator base duty cycle fuel volume is tuned to actual the easier it is for the PID to get there quickly....AND you are satisfied with how fast it responds.

I'm going to do a cam thread pretty quick I think you'll find entertaining, built a tune specifically for transient response to hit a very light inertia roll VERY HARD, hit 800 hp off boost with absolutely no load. This took a real working over of the Rate of change fueling, and the PID's response, and the rate in change is almost vertical.


Wow. Thanks for sharing. I'm shocked that this is the first time PID's and EFI Live has been mentioned on the boards (that I've seen.) I gotta start clicking around with this stuff.



2. PID control would still come into play as the ECM transitions from one value to another on the table. (Correct?) As your inputs move about the map/table, even with its numerous data points, there are still gaps. Even smoothed, there still aren't enough values present in the table to increment progressively enough, PID loops would still be necessary to control the transition from value(setpoint) to value(setpoint). Is this correct?

Remember even though there is only so many points the ecm averages out between points, its not a PID doing this simple math.

Same as a open loop controller is following a table, with math it is joining the points at any given time.



The assumption I made with my statement about being necessary(or not) to tweak these values was based upon use of linear steps in a map (as opposed to sharp changes) and responses from hardware that are similar to factory.

Where I see tweaking these might be beneficial would be an application with a modified CP3. Perhaps one could smooth the response of an FCA where the profile of the passageway has been modified? This may achieve smoother ramps in pressure and add driveability and consistency with the non linear area machined into the FCA groove. To my knowledge, this is not a trait highly modified pumps are known for.

Winner winner chicken dinner!!! This is exactly were the Pressure regulator base duty cycle table shines....match the new found flow with what is actually required through experimentation.

Again....this may still require no modification to the actual PID settings if you are happy with how quickly the response.


What say you? (all)
 
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Ross, can we have your thoughts on the FCA question. Do you consider "volume" a factor in anything or is it just a control valve ?

Oh gawd.......right. Who needs to consider fuel volume in our calibration.....:nail: all we need is pressure!!!! Yes its just a control valve......why on earth Bosch calls it a Volume control valve will continue to elude.....

Just like I need 80lbs boost....(No flow) just boost.....:nail:
 
Oh gawd.......right. Who needs to consider fuel volume in our calibration.....:nail: all we need is pressure!!!! Yes its just a control valve......why on earth Bosch calls it a Volume control valve will continue to elude.....

Just like I need 80lbs boost....(No flow) just boost.....:nail:

Sorry I haven't taken your word as the gospel. Because someone may not see things the way you do doesn't make it wrong. There's many ways to skin a cat. Instead of having attitude, like we're all frickin' idiots....it would be a lot cooler of you to just your share knowledge. I know I'm not the only one here absorbing all this.
 
Your right, 99% of the time I leave the attitude on the other side of the keyboard, so to that effect I apologise. I started lumping your post's in with doghouse's and got lost in reciprocating his attitude back.

With that said, you need to re-read what you posted and give it some more thought.

I don't have efi handy on this machine to post it so here's an offering to understand this further.

Open up a calibration on efi and then the "Pressure regulator base duty cycle"

Now have a good look at that table in 3D....I forget if you can scale and rotate in efi....

What your seeing is what should be the effective fuel volume that the FCA is is required flow to meet the demand when a given mm3 is commanded. (Matching engine load to fuel required to maintain that load)

Keeping in mind the pressure control PID has the last say in final control, this table can never be a perfect match.


Yes....it is just listed as a "duty cycle" but what you need to understand is that duty cycle is directly converted to fuel volume by proportional control of the metering valve or "FCA"

The pump example Amish pointed out is perfect to demonstrate this table.

Lets say you go from a stock pump to the hottest pump on the market.....lets say it flows almost three times what a stocker can do.....block busting flow.....:ft:!

We haven't changed thing else.

Now lets examine that table again, now what used to take for example 50% duty cycle to match 50% of full load fuel mass now only takes 25% duty cycle to meet that same 50% of full load fuel mass.

Now, our PID to control pressure has to work much harder to keep the target because our "GOTO table" does not match our pump flow any more. The PID's cheat sheet has the wrong answers!!!

NOW if you just want to to think "Duty cycle" and when you run out of pump you call up your pump builder and tell him....DAMNIT I'm out of "Duty cycle" agian.....LOL......Thats perfectly fine by me.....:Cheer:


BTW if I was never challenged on here I wouldn't hang around, a day does not go by I don't learn something new on here.


Really I thought there would be more open discussion on this all once efi was out there but, I suppose the tuner's want to keep their nuggets to themselves and maybe there are not a lot of end users out there yet willing to put on a clinic or discuss strategy.
 
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more excellent info.... thanks man. I swear you and Rich are saying the same thing though. It just seems to be coming out different in your translations.
 
I have a water faucet on the side of the house.....

I call it a water faucet, someone else calls it a spigot, someone else calls it a volume control valve.

You know what it does when it receives an input from my hand....it opens. You know what happens when it receives the next input....it closes.

Behind the faucet I have pressure. That pressure wants to move. Behind that pressure is a 35 gallon tank. How does it move, it's pressurized.

On the ground I have a bucket. I want to fill that bucket. To fill that bucket, I need to pressurize the water in the tank for it to move, otherwise it just sits there, in the tank, with a VOLUME of 35 gallons.

So I apply pressure and I open the faucet....water flows. But the flow is too fast, so I close the faucet a bit. Then its a little slow, so I open it a bit. I fill my bucket.

Does the water faucet (FCA) know how much it just flowed? Nope, all it did was respond to my input (ECM). That flow was adjusted (PID) based on feedback (pressure sensor).

Next time I decide to use a larger faucet (orifice), this fills the bucket faster so I can reduce the open time (duty cycle) of the faucet (FCA). But still, the faucet does not know how much it flowed, all it knows is that it was told to open or close. When the feedback said there was enough, it was closed. If we needed more, it was opened.

Any way you want to look at it, the valve doesn't know what it's flowing or when to start and stop.

We can make that complicated or simple, but that's all that happens.
 
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Where I see tweaking these might be beneficial would be an application with a modified CP3. Perhaps one could smooth the response of an FCA where the profile of the passageway has been modified? This may achieve smoother ramps in pressure and add driveability and consistency with the non linear area machined into the FCA groove. To my knowledge, this is not a trait highly modified pumps are known for.

That's exactly what I'm interested in tuning the initial shock of erratic pressure with a modded FCA when I stomp on it. Pressure goes up and down 2-3kpsi for a brief time, then smooths out.
 
You're still missing his point.

Not missing the point at all.

Being that we're talking duty cycle and yet, we haven't looked at what is ACTUALLY being done in this table, lets do a little exploring.

Here is the base duty cycle for an OEM tune.

What we see referenced is RPM, mm3 (which is NOT actually a cubic millimeters, its just a reference for several functions) and we have the duty cycle values.

This table is then further modified by the PID for a final duty cycle value.

What the ECM uses are two things....The engines RPM and the commanded mm3 value (which, again, is not actually cubic millimeters. It's a reference ONLY) and THIS is what determines the duty cycle.

What value is used by the P.I.D. to adjust this duty cycle? PRESSURE.

No where in the FCA's duty cycle is any specific VOLUME used as the calculation.

FCADutyCycle.jpg
 
Ok, here are my two cents on the matter. The ecm uses the mm3 value for reference ONLY. It does not matter that it is a unit of volume, it could just as easily be dinasours squared for all the truck cares. It simply is an axis value that is used in determining desired duration and pressure. Like Rich said the ECM has no sensor to measure volume of fuel flown. If it did then the overhead MPG would be accurate stock or tuned. The FCA does limit flow volume, but it does so only to meet the pressure demands and the A/D value. The only sensor that actually monitors the entire fuel system is the rail pressure sensor. So the entire thing is pressure based and the goal is to maintain the desired pressure for the given injector opening time. If the system was volume based then the PID loop would regulate a set of 100 horse injectors down so that they flow the same rate as stock by limiting duration and pressure but it does not. I do understand that the FCA itself does not have any idea what pressure is, but the ECM does and uses the value given to it by the rail pressure sensor to open the valve more or less to try and meet the desired pressure, that is it end of story. Now are there benefits to fine tuning the base duty cycle? You bet, that is why there is a mapping function in EFI Live that allows it to build a table for you based on what the actual values are as the truck is running. So, in short everyone is right, but the ecm is pressure based not flow and that is the simple fact of it.
 
Call the FCA whatever you like. Hell, Cummins calls it ETR, Fuel Control Actuator.

You know what it is. A valve. A valve that simply does what it's told to do.
 
JSP is there any way to know how much volume the FCA is flowing? Any data on a stock and modified one?
 
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