Loctiting VE pump seal? or other theories

Smokin ACE

Smokin ACE

1st gen turbo tester
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
250
I'm putting together a 14mm non ic VE pump and am gonna run it on the bench at school. I'm wanting to loctite the front seal so i can run more inlet pressure without blowing it out and have heard of many people doing this. So do I just pull the seal out, put some red loctite around the outside of it then slip it back in or whats the trick?

I thought about making a retainer plate and drilling and tapping into the front housing of the pump but I'm not sure if there is enough meat there and You can't go down on the pump flange since the one round spot of the pump fits inside the hole in the front case. I thought about even tigging a small retainer plate in but don't want to heat or melt the seal. I have heard of people machining or trying to machine a groove in front of the seal to put a snap ring in. This would be ideal and I'm thinking about trying that with a spare pump I have that I want to experiment with. I also thought about peening over some of the aluminum in spots to help hold the seal down after loctiting it, but I'm not sure how well that'd work either.

So if any of you have loctited your front seal to run 20+psi of inlet pressure, what is the trick and how long has it worked? Or do any of you have any other ideas to help keep the seal from blowing out and filling the crankcase full of fuel? Thanks in advance
 
You ruin the seal removing it. So, you gotta have a new one.

Red loctite is the easiest method. Snapring or retainer are options... not as easy.
 
Mine has been loctited for a few years now, just the way you're describing. I'm running 30psi all the time from an Air Dog 165gph pump. I don't have dynamic timing anymore, but it's a small price to pay for a pump that lives. I also try not to rev it over 3500rpm if I can.
 
So has anybody ever publicly posted about running over 20psig and sure-enough popped the input-shaft seal? :confused:
 
BC847 said:
So has anybody ever publicly posted about running over 20psig and sure-enough popped the input-shaft seal? :confused:
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Sort of....some of em pop, others don't. Like asking when a head gasket will blow. I'd rather be safe than sorry and do the loctite.
 
Dont VE's have an internal vain pump at the inlet to boost internal pressures anyways? I know the old VE's on big trucks did, thats what my copy righted 1985 Diesel fuel system book says. lol
 
I got a seal kit here with a few missing seals but I think it has the one I need. If not I ordered another seal kit for the other pump i have along with another 4200 for this 14mm pump. I think I'll loctited a new seal in, then peen over some of the aluminum, then I may try and make a small retainer plate for it out of a washer or something and see if i can get a few short screws to hold it. I've seen a few pics of one on 1stgen.org so it has been done. Doin all that may be overkill but the more I do I figured its a Plan A,B, and C deal, if one fails maybe the other one will catch it or they will all work together haha. I will still be checking my oil about every day or everytime I drive it to make sure I'm not "making oil", so hopefully I can catch it if it does blow out.

On a side note we were pushing 60-70psi into my buddy's 4bt VE pump on the bench the other day when we were messing with it. We were still tryin to figure out the old pump bench but thats what the pressure was at for several runs until we figured out how to turn it down. It didn't blow the front seal, but like my instructor said, add heat, oil, and vibration to the equation and over time You may not be so lucky. We did notice a small decrease as we lost about 10ccs of fuel across the board when we turned the inlet pressure down to about 18 psi. We got that little pump puttin some fuel out though. Running at full throttle with no afc control (stock fuel pin with no boost so idle fueling) to full throttle with the afc lever pulled (full fuel) we gained 100ccs of fuel at 1000 strokes. Of course the full power screw was in as far as it'd go. But at the end of the day we were getting 270ccs of fuel at 750 pump rpm(1500 engine rpm) at 1000 strokes with some dummy injectors. So i'm not sure exactly how accurate that is yet.

The 14mm pump I'm putting together will be a non intercooled pump from a 90 that was rebuild about a year ago. The kid I got it from said it fueled a lot harder than any other VE he's messed with so hopefully it will give me some decent results. I got a rockentech 14mm I'm gonna install along with a clipped 4200 governor spring, no afc lever, and a "secured" front seal that I can hopefully run 25ish +? psi to with no problems. I know they say the 14mms don't like rpms but I should be able to keep this under 3500 rpms, I just loved the response of the 4200 spring in the 12mm pump I have on now I figured I'd go with it and clip it to give it all a try. I'm not 100% sure on injectors yet but I'm thinking either 6x18s or 5x20s. I will still have the 12mm pump I have on the truck now wrapped up in the toolbox ready to go as a spare in case this 14mm decides to seize up at a pull or somewhere on the road. If that happens I will go back to the drawing board, but I will always be studying how to get more out of these lil unrespected VE pumps.
 
I'm thinkin an S475 with the smallest A/R housing I can go so I can pull in the 3.0 class and still be able to spool it. I've also had thoughts on a 66. But I loved my last big single and I could always throw the 475 under my HE351CW if it gets to the point where its not streetable. Lets just say after a built 47rh, 14mm, big injectors and big turbo, I'm gonna be very disappointed if it doesn't put out 450+hp on the rollers. No nos for me, at least for now, but I have been thinking water meth, but I'll see what it does first.
 
Smokin ACE said:
Lets just say after a built 47rh, 14mm, big injectors and big turbo, I'm gonna be very disappointed if it doesn't put out 550+hp on the rollers. No nos for me, at least for now, but I have been thinking water meth, but I'll see what it does first.
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Fixed it for ya :poke:

Aim high man, you'll never know what you can do. Jayers made 501rwhp on a 62mm turbo, and I made 487rwhp on a 62, and KTA and STOMP have made 650, so I'd say you should be shooting for 550 at least. Run lots of timing too, is my advice.
 
Now Lance I've been plannin this for a while haha. I guess since we both work for Kenworth now the income is just helpin to get things done haha.

Thanks JQ, I have high hopes for this old farm truck, I don't care to have the biggest and baddest 1st gen out there cuz theres always gonna be someone with something bigger and badder. But I just want to surprise the heck out of some people of what the VE pump is still capable of. When I can spank newer Dmaxes, CR's and some p pumped trucks say in some pulls or drags, thats all the fun I need to make it worth it to me. I want it to be a humble truck but give people a run for their money when someone challenges it. I'm just gonna mess around with everything and see what works for it and what doesnt. But it would be nice to come out with those numbers in the end. I'm gonna see if I can get more timing out of it after I put this 14mm pump on, I'll have to start all over on dialing it in on the truck.
 
JQmile said:
Mine has been loctited for a few years now, just the way you're describing. I'm running 30psi all the time from an Air Dog 165gph pump. I don't have dynamic timing anymore, but it's a small price to pay for a pump that lives. I also try not to rev it over 3500rpm if I can.
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Why don't you have dynamic timing anymore? Isn't that one of the best parts of the VE?
 
Smokin ACE said:
Now Lance I've been plannin this for a while haha. I guess since we both work for Kenworth now the income is just helpin to get things done haha.
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HA! i wish :nail: If i didnt have to pay what I do in rent every month, this pile of junk woulda been finished, ran, and blown up by now. K-dub doesnt pay worth a darn up here but its a job.
 
buy a camper buddy haha I've thought about it. I'm makin more money here than I'm used to haha, especially where I'm not even finished with diesel school yet. Its nice to have a taste and learn and see the light at the end of the tunnel. AlsoI cant complain about discounts on Cummins parts and Carquest stuff, and all the the free stuff I can pick up that they scrap or throw away. Like I mentioned, you need to hit the Idaho falls pull again this year Lance
 
JQmile said:
Mine has been loctited for a few years now, just the way you're describing. I'm running 30psi all the time from an Air Dog 165gph pump. I don't have dynamic timing anymore, but it's a small price to pay for a pump that lives. I also try not to rev it over 3500rpm if I can.
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I have failed to see why pinning the timing advance helps anything.

I posted on DTR I believe of the guy who made a retainer for the pump seal. Did you check it out?
 
If he's running that much inlet pressure then I think dynamic timing is out the window. I also do not see the advantage. But maybe they will chime in to give out a secret?
 
smokinVE said:
If he's running that much inlet pressure then I think dynamic timing is out the window. I also do not see the advantage. But maybe they will chime in to give out a secret?
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It must be a Scheid thing. They must just want to turn the ve into ppump. KTA and myself have seen up to 150rwhp gain with the ksb. But to each is own. You still gotta tune it, cc's ain't everything.
 
There is no advantage to fixed timing. It's worse. It's just the route I ended up going due to lack of time/budget/tuning take your pick :poke:
 
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