Power and Smoke?

Burner

slow poke
Joined
Apr 24, 2006
Messages
4,393
I can see that the #1 trucks in pulling and the track have TONs of smoke. I think most understand that Smoke = Incomplete burn. So, exactly what is going on here? Is only 1/2 the Diesel burning, is the cylinder flooded, how much Diesel is burning, is it running cooler or hotter, would not smoke be "unused" power?:bang
 
The CR motors will start to eliminate that, with mechanical injection or cruder computer controls about all you can do is dump the fuel to it. Once you can control ALL the variables with the motor a whole lot of the smoke will be eliminated IMHO. A smoke show is fun to watch, but it does represent unburned fuel that could be producing power, to an extent it will help keep the cylinder temps down, but not that much.
 
So, with enough air, the fuel isn't atomized that well if you have a lot of smoke? I wonder how much fuel surface area is needed to make a "no smoke" Diesel?

I guess the pilot injection would be a good thing until the piston speed was too high?


.....going on that, what is the remedy for real power without smoke?:bang
 
........AND meeting emissions, keeping the exhaust temp down. Twins? :confused:
 
Alot of it has to be just for fun to see, because watching a truck pulling a sled with no smoke is just boring, to me at least.
 
Billysgoat said:
The CR motors will start to eliminate that, with mechanical injection or cruder computer controls about all you can do is dump the fuel to it. Once you can control ALL the variables with the motor a whole lot of the smoke will be eliminated IMHO. A smoke show is fun to watch, but it does represent unburned fuel that could be producing power, to an extent it will help keep the cylinder temps down, but not that much.

Exactly, Cr motors with high pressure injection & complete engine control are the future. I think I seen somewhere that somebody put a P-pump on a newer Dodge, it kinda defeats the whole purpose of efficiency when using old technology. Probably use half the fuel on a CR motor as the P-pumped truck & make the same power.
Thing thats going to be needed is a revolution with the injectors to keep the stock style atomization & fuel pressure in the sweet spot. Enlarging the holes is not the answer.
 
So the bowl and Injector will need to be changed? I guess higher psi and small holes (more of them) will be the ticket? Gott'a break apart those bonds to get air all the way around each .......
 
I look for a dual injector setup to become the ticket for the Pro-Mod drag racers who want to compete with the gassers. It's just about the only way I can forsee getting the amount of fuel in the combustion chamber you need to make the serious power, WITH proper atomization for the best burn.

Make no mistake fella's, the smoke shows will have to end at some point, really quick if they want to break into the national level NHRA type events.
 
My CR's always gona smoke...how can i smoke out the yuppie bikers without it???
 
I guess that's what I'm getting at. With all that smoke, how much fuel is actually being used for power?
 
Burner said:
So the bowl and Injector will need to be changed? I guess higher psi and small holes (more of them) will be the ticket? Gott'a break apart those bonds to get air all the way around each .......

It isn't the molecular bonds you have to break. You have to interfere with the surface tension of the fuel droplets to get the fuel to evaporate quicker; the faster it evaporates, the faster it burns. 2 ounces of acetone per 10 gallons (1280 oz.) of fuel seems to do this quite nicely. 5,000 miles now and I'm still getting better and smoother power from my ancient injectors. I can only imagine what it'd be like with newl freshened injectors.

Of course, trying something so radical (even though it's only 0.15% concentration) isn't for the faint of heart. :D
 
Of course PEAK power is made at stoichiometric ratios of air and fuel. In a diesel they are designed "old school" based on a smoke limit,(now days they are designed based off NOX limits mostly) which is actually usually 20%less than peak power conditions. What this means is that any diesel at peak power conditions will smoke, at least to some exten. Peak power in a diesel is usually had with a heavy haze of smoke
 
Welcome Brian, you are trully one of the inovators in the diesel world, glade to see you back in the public forum, now if we can get John Russin to get out and add words of wisdom thanks for you and Johns help with my past projects , with out you it would have taken longer .

with that ,I disigree with you on smoke, the reasion that you have to have a haze is with low pressure injectors and less then opitimal bowl and tip design I watched Project X make some increadable power with no smoke, and there is more power where that came from , but I'm being consertive with a 217,000 motor. I also think that higher rail pressure is another answer, along with fuel additive I'll write more when I'm not doing it with out the aid of my word processor
 
So how much of this {C12 H26} is broken down? Should the fuel be heated before it hits the rails or is this occurring at the tip? ......stupid here, Ionic or covalent bond trying to be broken here?
 
Burner said:
So how much of this {C12 H26} is broken down? Should the fuel be heated before it hits the rails or is this occurring at the tip? ......stupid here, Ionic or covalent bond trying to be broken here?

I'll jump in. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me.

Fuel temp around 75F and charge air temp around 120F yields the best power. Injection pressures above 25K PSI provide better atomization of fuel. Better atomization of fuel leads to quicker evaporation of the liquid fuel. The faster it evaporates, the sooner it burns. If it burns sooner, less injection timing is needed.

Now, once the cylinder gasses start to burn, pressure and temperature rise rapidly. This condition leads to molecular separation and recombination. (The Fischer-Tropf process used to synthesize fuel exploits this condition.) Some of the recombination results in NOx and CO when temperature/pressure conditions are just right. Much of the recombination results in the generation of H2O and CO2 and a lot of heat.

Now if you don't care about 'pollutant' emissions, then you would want to time fuel injection to relatively maximize cylinder pressure from just after TDC and keep it near that maximum until the crank is down to around 90 deg. after TDC. If you care about emissions, you'll want to control injection so that maximum cylinder pressure is less than that needed to produce NOx. Common rail technology will shine here, since fuel flow can be controlled electronically.

Since diesel fuel is injected for a period of time after TDC, you also need to ensure that injection pressure is high enough to achieve good atomization even when cylinder pressure is up around 8000-10,000 PSI. Again, common rail technology will shine here, since it can create much higher injection pressures than ordinary mechanical systems can produce.

Current injection technology uses one injector nozzle per cylinder. The spray pattern from the nozzle is a best compromise between spraying when the piston is at TDC, and when the piston is lower. Two nozzles per cylinder might be better. Use one when the piston is near TDC and the spray needs to be nearly horizontal, and the other when the piston is lower and the spray can be more vertical. Perhaps some clever engineer will design a coaxial injector, where the outer solenoid opens near TDC to spray horizontally, and the inner solenoid opens when the cylinder is lower to spray more vertically. Or perhaps design an injector such that when opened slightly, fuel is directed to the smaller, horizontal holes; when opened moderately, fuel is directed to both horizontal and vertical holes, and when fully open, fuel is directed to the larger, vertical holes.

Of course, alternate fuels won't hurt either. Use GTL fuel (synthesized from natural gas). It contains no sulphur. It has much greater molecular uniformity, excellent lubricity and cetane rating of 70 or better. It might even work better at high RPM (greater than 6000). And I don't see why 87 octane pump gasoline or ethanol or methanol couldn't be used in a common rail compression ignition engine (while using lubricity enhancers, of course); if the charge air is hot enough to ignite diesel fuel, it should be hot enough to ignite alcohol or gasoline.

In summary, heat the fuel to the optimal temperature. Cool the charge air to the optimal temperature. Precisely control fuel injection so as to achieve and maintain optimal (or maximal, as desired) cylinder pressure. Redesign electronic injectors to employ more than one spray pattern. Use alternate fuels that evaporate and burn better.

Once you have a fuel control system that will produce the best and cleanest power, then move on to optimizing the mechanical system to minimize charge air and exhaust flow inefficiencies.

Of course, none of this will happen until computer geeks turn into dieselheads. It is a rare gearhead indeed who can program a controller.
 
hippie said:
Of course, none of this will happen until computer geeks turn into dieselheads. It is a rare gearhead indeed who can program a controller.

EFILive?

sacha-chua-the-geek-shall-inherit-the-earth.jpg
 
yeah, that's a start.......... but does EFI make anything for a Dodge/Cummins?


Also: Do you think it's possible that ONE injector can be split two-ways?
 
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