PPE GT40R initial Dyno - 670.8rwhp 1415tq

Don M said:
I did not say one was better than the other, more accurate than the other, or closer to what the ET/HP calculation would be. I simply said that the Superflow in Cali typically gives a higher number than the uncorrected DynoJet numbers. This is clear by the 16% difference in numbers from the SF to the DJ several guys have experienced from one to the other.

Since the DJ is the overwhelming choice in the country for dyno brand and it would be encountered more likely than others, I thought the information was relevant.

During the intense dyno work we have done over the years since 1999 we have found that some of the CF is valid and even posted to this in the past. Even on TurboDiesels. Depending on the CF used. Be it: SAE J-1349, DIN, EEC, or JIS all used by DynoJet or the STP factor you are using on the superflow. The STP by the way is still a SAE correction factor, but it is more generous as I will show.


The DynoJet used SAE J-1349 corrects HP output to 77 degrees and a baro of 29.92.

The commonly referred to STP ( Standard, Temp and Air ) used often on the Superflow corrects HP to 60 degrees and a baro of 29.23. So any temp over 60 degrees compared to the 77 for SAE J-1349 get something added to that. Not withstanding the baro readings. 5% is roughly the average difference between the two factors on most engines.

Using the 5% and a few numbers shows how potentially different the two numbers can be:

Lets take 500 HP, 600 HP and 700 HP for comparison using the average gain of 5% over the DJ SAE J-1349.

A 500 HP run on SAE DynoJet would be 525 on a STP dyno.
A 600 HP " " 630 on a STP dyno
A 700 HP" " 735 on a STP dyno

Clearly you get an advantage as the temps go up to 80 degrees on the STP dyno. A full 20 degrees over the STP "standard" air temp they compare for VS 3 degrees of factor for the SAE J-1349 Dynojet

From there the politics can take over and I dont care personally what people want to use for a Dyno, a CF or a ET/HP comparison. But for averages and the shear poliferation of the DynoJet, I thought it to be the better standard to delete the CF, run uncorrected numbers on the DynoJet and consider my HP data conservative compared to some of the others.
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That's the most informative post I've read in a while, thanks Don M.

By the way, I happen to consider people at 2,710 feet of elevation "low-landers", but then again my judgement might be impaired since I "live in a very small world with" a little less oxygen..:rolleyes:
 
I started playing with dynojets in 2000, so you have a head start on me. ;) I still remember that my stock Camaro put out 312rwhp with 600mi on it. At the time, folk were saying dynojets inflate the numbers. CF was 1.00 (uncorrected, neutral DA).

I've used DJs, Mustangs, and Superflows, and certainly have over 1000 pulls combined over the years.

Now you have my curiousity up. My last diesel dynojet was back when the LLY came out. It's numbers were pretty much spot on with the Mustang. But this was at 375rwhp. I've been using the other two ever since.

I'll set an appointment.

I have nothing against DJ's, and if I were to buy a dyno, it would be my first choice. But I have not seen a truck lose over 10% of it's power on a DJ yet. If it loses it on a DJ, it normally loses it on a normal test with a load cell as well. If you are not loading the engine enough, ride the brakes at first, or put on the tallest tire you can find and run the highest gear.

"Conservative" numbers do me no good. I need repeatable numbers since I'm always changing things. Wiping out the correction factor entirely helps no more than using it on a 110 deg day when you know it will be bogus.

So I take the readings, then run the truck at the track or street to comfirm what the dyno is telling me. If the two do not agree, back to the dyno again.

Don M said:
I did not say one was better than the other, more accurate than the other, or closer to what the ET/HP calculation would be. I simply said that the Superflow in Cali typically gives a higher number than the uncorrected DynoJet numbers. This is clear by the 16% difference in numbers from the SF to the DJ several guys have experienced from one to the other.

Since the DJ is the overwhelming choice in the country for dyno brand and it would be encountered more likely than others, I thought the information was relevant.

During the intense dyno work we have done over the years since 1999 we have found that some of the CF is valid and even posted to this in the past. Even on TurboDiesels. Depending on the CF used. Be it: SAE J-1349, DIN, EEC, or JIS all used by DynoJet or the STP factor you are using on the superflow. The STP by the way is still a SAE correction factor, but it is more generous as I will show.


The DynoJet used SAE J-1349 corrects HP output to 77 degrees and a baro of 29.92.

The commonly referred to STP ( Standard, Temp and Air ) used often on the Superflow corrects HP to 60 degrees and a baro of 29.23. So any temp over 60 degrees compared to the 77 for SAE J-1349 get something added to that. Not withstanding the baro readings. 5% is roughly the average difference between the two factors on most engines.

Using the 5% and a few numbers shows how potentially different the two numbers can be:

Lets take 500 HP, 600 HP and 700 HP for comparison using the average gain of 5% over the DJ SAE J-1349.

A 500 HP run on SAE DynoJet would be 525 on a STP dyno.
A 600 HP " " 630 on a STP dyno
A 700 HP" " 735 on a STP dyno

Clearly you get an advantage as the temps go up to 80 degrees on the STP dyno. A full 20 degrees over the STP "standard" air temp they compare for VS 3 degrees of factor for the SAE J-1349 Dynojet

From there the politics can take over and I dont care personally what people want to use for a Dyno, a CF or a ET/HP comparison. But for averages and the shear poliferation of the DynoJet, I thought it to be the better standard to delete the CF, run uncorrected numbers on the DynoJet and consider my HP data conservative compared to some of the others.
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I know the dynojet won't spool the bigger charges like a load cell. That's for sure and for certain. We only saw 35-36 psi boost on our dynojet up here (5000ft elevation 60-70 deg days), and I saw 52 psi on the Superflow (same elevation same temps). Amazing how the crying starts when the complainer didn't even show up on the same dyno the same day to be able to call foul. And even then I'm sure there will still be lots of crying (excuses). The #s are what they are. If you get better, GREAT. If not, go kick stones. It's only a measure for our truck that day on that dyno. Unless you had a truck on the same dyno at the same day, your comparisons are meaningless.
 
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super diesel said:
I know the dynojet won't spool the bigger charges like a load cell. That's for sure and for certain. We only saw 35-36 psi boost on our load cell up here (5000ft elevation 60-70 deg days), and I saw 52 psi on the Superflow (same elevation same temps). Amazing how the crying starts when the complainer didn't even show up on the same dyno the same day to be able to call foul. And even then I'm sure there will still be lots of crying (excuses). The #s are what they are. If you get better, GREAT. If not, go kick stones. It's only a measure for our truck that day on that dyno. Unless you had a truck on the same dyno at the same day, your comparisons are meaningless.
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Well Stated SD!
 
The bottom line is you can fool a dyno into reading what you want it to if all your looking for is advertising hype. It doesn't do much good when you do it but many do. If you use corrected numbers that's fine as they mean nothing to any other dyno but the one your working with. If you check the correction equation's you will find they are only for NA motors, no supercharged, turbocharged or any other power adder. The math assumes the room temperature to be intake manifold temperature and it assumes the Baro to be intake manifold pressure.......................... anyone see a problem with this?

I've watched a Camaro on a DJ gain 20 Hp by changing the flywheel weight anyone that thinks the motor gained 20 Hp by changing the flywheel is nuts. Just the same you can fool with the load on a Superflow and move the numbers all around. Which is right and which is wrong doesn't much matter as they are all wrong.

Use the dyno as a tool to learn from or test the various vehicles on the same day, same dyno and keep the room conditions the same and then you can compare results between vehicles from those test only.
 
Diesel Tech said:
The bottom line is you can fool a dyno into reading what you want it to if all your looking for is advertising hype. It doesn't do much good when you do it but many do. If you use corrected numbers that's fine as they mean nothing to any other dyno but the one your working with. If you check the correction equation's you will find they are only for NA motors, no supercharged, turbocharged or any other power adder. The math assumes the room temperature to be intake manifold temperature and it assumes the Baro to be intake manifold pressure.......................... anyone see a problem with this?

I've watched a Camaro on a DJ gain 20 Hp by changing the flywheel weight anyone that thinks the motor gained 20 Hp by changing the flywheel is nuts. Just the same you can fool with the load on a Superflow and move the numbers all around. Which is right and which is wrong doesn't much matter as they are all wrong.

Use the dyno as a tool to learn from or test the various vehicles on the same day, same dyno and keep the room conditions the same and then you can compare results between vehicles from those test only.
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Correct, a dyno is tuning tool, and repeatibility is more important than the actual number.

However, dyno sheets are very common marketing tools. We chose the Westech dyno for a reason. This is the same dyno TTS, Moonshine, WCD, Diesel Power Mag, etc, have used extensively. It's the closest thing to "apples to apples" that we have in our area.

As far as using intake manifold air temp and pressure to generate correction factor, this is not true. It's measured in the room. The only sensor we fed into the dyno computer was boost pressure so we could tie it into RPM/power at 1:1.
 
Diesel Tech said:
The math assumes the room temperature to be intake manifold temperature and it assumes the Baro to be intake manifold pressure.......................... anyone see a problem with this?
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I figured if it was posted twice it might sink in.
 
Correct we have all used that dyno and we have always used one test procedure. So if it doesn't matter Pat why did you change the way the testing has always been done at Westech for everyone else to something different. It sure seems strange that you change the way the dyno test is performed then your numbers jump 150 Hp from what you did on the same dyno with NOS at the Diesel Power Shoot Out and are still different from the day when the SSS tune, Moonshine and your tune were tested. You made right at 500 RwHp as did everyone else, changed the dyno test procedure and now its up 150 HP or more. Like I said you can make it read what you want too if you know how.
 
Diesel Tech said:
Correct we have all used that dyno and we have always used one test procedure. So if it doesn't matter Pat why did you change the way the testing has always been done at Westech for everyone else to something different. It sure seems strange that you change the way the dyno test is performed then your numbers jump 150 Hp from what you did on the same dyno with NOS at the Diesel Power Shoot Out and are still different from the day when the SSS tune, Moonshine and your tune were tested. You made right at 500 RwHp as did everyone else, changed the dyno test procedure and now its up 150 HP or more. Like I said you can make it read what you want too if you know how.
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Holy misinformation Batman!! Not sure where to start on that one.

So you really think Casper puts out 500hp on nitrous? ;)

Let me know when you have a day free, and you can watch a test.
 
PS - I know you are aware that our LLY tune was tested on Blue and used the 4th gear overloaded procedure with STP correction, just like your tune was tested there. And it made more power and more area under the curve.

Not sure why you'd post that it used a different procedure when you know that's not true.

Casper uses a 5th gear test to avoid tire spin and to more accurately mimic dragstrip conditions, and it also stops unwanted upshifting at high RPM that happens sometimes with modified TCM's. We spend more time in 5th gear than any other gear when racing. It dynos 10rwhp less in 5th than 4th.
 
McRat said:
PS - I know you are aware that our LLY tune was tested on Blue and used the 4th gear overloaded procedure with STP correction, just like your tune was tested there. And it made more power and more area under the curve.

Not sure why you'd post that it used a different procedure when you know that's not true.

Casper uses a 5th gear test to avoid tire spin and to more accurately mimic dragstrip conditions, and it also stops unwanted upshifting at high RPM that happens sometimes with modified TCM's. We spend more time in 5th gear than any other gear when racing. It dynos 10rwhp less in 5th than 4th.
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Since we have never made anything but a tow tune (50Hp)on the LLY for a total of 305 RwHp I would hope your 500 Hp tune made more. What you grabbing at straws now since the truth is out. Your dyno numbers are out in the magazine from the Diesel Power Shoot Out, the dyno test with the others have been talked about by many who were there so now your disclaiming them. You event made a post sometime back about changing the test and that it showed better numbers. You've added a second CP3 and changed the tune some but why didn't the track times drop 150Hp increase worth............................... simple because it's not there. You truck runs well just not as well as you are trying to claim by the Hp numbers. Your truck weight is suspect at best as I've seen you at the track and you remove anything that's not welded in. My guess would be your around 5900 lbs race weight maybe less. Now lets compare this to Buck's truck, weight is 5800 dyno says 715 RwHp and runs 10.44 @130.8 mph at 1100 ft. Now I watched you run 11.8x @112.xx at Fontana with the HTT turbo which you claim is better (675.xx IIRC) but yet you claim 670.8 with the Garrett turbo! Track times just do not add up plain and simple. Fontana is 900 ft so it should run close to the times were running on Buck's truck with the power numbers your claiming but it doesn't event come close.
 
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Diesel Tech said:
Since we have never made anything but a tow tune (50Hp)on the LLY for a total of 305 RwHp I would hope your 500 Hp tune made more. What you grabbing at straws now since the truth is out. Your dyno numbers are out in the magazine from the Diesel Power Shoot Out, the dyno test with the others have been talked about by many who were there so now your disclaiming them. You event made a post sometime back about changing the test and that it showed better numbers. You've added a second CP3 and changed the tune some but why didn't the track times drop 150Hp increase worth............................... simple because it's not there. You truck runs well just not as well as you are trying to claim by the Hp numbers. Your truck weight is suspect at best as I've seen you at the track and you remove anything that's not welded in. My guess would be your around 5900 lbs race weight maybe less. Now lets compare this to Buck's truck, weight is 5800 dyno says 715 RwHp and runs 10.44 @130.8 mph at 1100 ft. Now I watched you run 11.8x @112.xx at Fontana with the HTT turbo which you claim is better (675.xx IIRC) but yet you claim 670.8 with the Garrett turbo! Track times just do not add up plain and simple. Fontana is 900 ft so it should run close to the times were running on Buck's truck with the power numbers your claiming but it doesn't event come close.
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:shake:

Steve, your stuff is slow without a bottle. Just live with it.

Casper has the following weight removal: Spare tire, back seat, 2nd battery, lighter front seats (for harness). It has also added this weight: Rollbar, driveshaft hoops, 2nd CP3. It weighs 6400-6500 depending on fuel and tailgate. You've seen it. Care to wager on it's weight?

caspermeanie.JPG


My 11.85 @ 115.x at Fontana (1121' ASL at the starting line) at 3300' DA was certainly faster than anything you could muster up. How slow, I mean how fast did your trucks run? Next time bring something fast, as apparently "safety in numbers" didn't work too well, eh?
 
PS - Like I said, you want to lie about how I dyno, go right ahead. Stop by sometime when I'm testing. Heck, bring a truck! Leave the bottle at home.
 
McRat said:
Casper has the following weight removal: Spare tire, back seat, 2nd battery, lighter front seats (for harness). It has also added this weight: Rollbar, driveshaft hoops, 2nd CP3. It weighs 6400-6500 depending on fuel and tailgate. You've seen it. Care to wager on it's weight?

My 11.85 @ 115.x at Fontana (1121' ASL at the starting line) at 3300' DA was certainly faster than anything you could muster up.
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Since you did not have the roll cage, driveshaft loops or talegate at Fontana you can drop those as they were not in at Fontana. Buck's truck has all of them installed but has a lighter bed install so that is were I got the weight from since you both have the same truck. I event gave you an extra 100 lbs. Did you dream up the DA as I check it at the track that day and it was only 1500 ft. As for what I had that day at the track it was nothing but you did refuse to line up against Frank's truck twice that day. Wonder why..............

I given you a fair truck to compare too with real dyno numbers that go with it. It's run all around the country in front of thousands of people. It's got nothing to do with what we do. So why do your numbers not event come close to alignment? Remember numbers do not lye.

10.44 to 11.85 McRat slower by 1.4 sec or 12% slower
130.8 to 112.x McRat slower by 18 MPH or 13% slower
715 to 675 McRat lower by 40 Hp or 5.5% less

The math just doesn't work, You do not make the power you claim too, if you did you would be much quicker! I guess you will just have to live with it or step it up a bunch more........ then what will you claim more Advertising Hype numbers.
 
Diesel Tech said:
Since you did not have the roll cage, driveshaft loops or talegate at Fontana you can drop those as they were not in at Fontana. Buck's truck has all of them installed but has a lighter bed install so that is were I got the weight from since you both have the same truck. I event gave you an extra 100 lbs. Did you dream up the DA as I check it at the track that day and it was only 1500 ft. As for what I had that day at the track it was nothing but you did refuse to line up against Frank's truck twice that day. Wonder why..............

I given you a fair truck to compare too with real dyno numbers that go with it. It's run all around the country in front of thousands of people. It's got nothing to do with what we do. So why do your numbers not event come close to alignment? Remember numbers do not lye.

10.44 to 11.85 McRat slower by 1.4 sec or 12% slower
130.8 to 112.x McRat slower by 18 MPH or 13% slower
715 to 675 McRat lower by 40 Hp or 5.5% less

The math just doesn't work, You do not make the power you claim too, if you did you would be much quicker! I guess you will just have to live with it or step it up a bunch more........ then what will you claim more Advertising Hype numbers.
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Buy a new DA meter. Mine works great. No way could it have been 1500' when it was that hot out at 1100'. NFW.

I didn't refuse to race Frank. Everyone knew where we were. You were off hiding in the corner away from all the other racers. I had 20 diesel pickups in my pit, which was right on the return road. You couldn't miss it. We were one the first pits there.

Frank's best pass was slower than my worst pass. Kinda a moot point eh? And that was the fastest thing you had.

Until Buck and Jesse run at LACR, you have ZERO clue what that truck would run there. Remember those "11 second" Dodges at the DP shootout? Running 13's at LACR?

Let me know the date you want me to show you you're full of it. I'll bring a video recorder to the scales and the dyno.
 
There where 30 pits in our pit area looking at our DA meter. I remember it being 3300-3600ft actually.

Here is a link to the history of 09-24-06
http://www.wunderground.com/history...tml?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA
Time(PDT) Temperature Dew Point Humidity Sea Level Pressure Visibility Wind Direction Wind Speed Gust Speed Precipitation Events Conditions

11:53 AM 81.0 °F / 27.2 °C 43.0 °F / 6.1 °C 26% 29.95 in / 1014.1 hPa 10.0 miles / 16.1 kilometers Variable 3.5 mph / 5.6 km/h - N/A Partly Cloudy
12:53 PM 88.0 °F / 31.1 °C 37.9 °F / 3.3 °C 17% 29.92 in / 1013.0 hPa 10.0 miles / 16.1 kilometers SW 5.8 mph / 9.3 km/h - N/A Clear
1:53 PM 91.9 °F / 33.3 °C 27.5 °F / -2.5 °C 10% 29.88 in / 1011.8 hPa 10.0 miles / 16.1 kilometers Variable 5.8 mph / 9.3 km/h - N/A Clear
2:53 PM 91.0 °F / 32.8 °C 24.1 °F / -4.4 °C 9% 29.86 in / 1011.0 hPa 10.0 miles / 16.1 kilometers SSW 4.6 mph / 7.4 km/h - N/A Clear
3:53 PM 91.0 °F / 32.8 °C 39.0 °F / 3.9 °C 16% 29.85 in / 1010.8 hPa 10.0 miles / 16.1 kilometers West 12.7 mph / 20.4 km/h 17.3 mph / 27.8 km/h N/A Clear
4:53 PM 88.0 °F / 31.1 °C 42.1 °F / 5.6 °C 20% 29.85 in / 1010.8 hPa 10.0 miles / 16.1 kilometers West 15.0 mph / 24.1 km/h - N/A Clear

Link to DA Caluculator
http://www.modulardepot.com/density2.php

Any numbers I use come up to over 3300ft
 
So by being at the races at Fontana with a motorhome two trailers and three trucks racing is hiding in your book. You refused to race Frank plain and simple, remeber Frank offered you the fan switch which was your excuse for not running. Now let's get back on subject and off your ego.

We are comparing two trucks at like tracks, in like conditions. Fontana and Atlanta. LACR has nothing to do with it. I was at both you were not. Atlanta was much hotter than Fontana and the DA was almost the same both places. Now what your truck weight was without the parts that you lied about and what you would have in it later I do not know or care. The numbers do not lie and you do not run the times at Fontana that go with the HP claims your making.

You want to race Buck's truck that's fine. How about bringing your truck to the TS Performance Shoot Out next April/May as the final date is not set yet. We will be there will you? You can run your 675 Hp truck at the track and and can be weighted and dyno'ed. I'm sure I can get Buck to do the same. If we run the same times as we do now and you run the times I know you will it will prove what I've been saying all along.

You can event bring the new motor your working on too.
 
Diesel Tech said:
So by being at the races at Fontana with a motorhome two trailers and three trucks racing is hiding in your book. You refused to race Frank plain and simple, remeber Frank offered you the fan switch which was your excuse for not running. Now let's get back on subject and off your ego.

We are comparing two trucks at like tracks, in like conditions. Fontana and Atlanta. LACR has nothing to do with it. I was at both you were not. Atlanta was much hotter than Fontana and the DA was almost the same both places. Now what your truck weight was without the parts that you lied about and what you would have in it later I do not know or care. The numbers do not lie and you do not run the times at Fontana that go with the HP claims your making.

You want to race Buck's truck that's fine. How about bringing your truck to the TS Performance Shoot Out next April/May as the final date is not set yet. We will be there will you? You can run your 675 Hp truck at the track and and can be weighted and dyno'ed. I'm sure I can get Buck to do the same. If we run the same times as we do now and you run the times I know you will it will prove what I've been saying all along.

You can event bring the new motor your working on too.
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"My brother's neighbor has a really fast car that will take you!!!" :shake:

You and/or your crew watched Casper weigh in before. Remember the High Desert? 6420lb without tailgate, without muffler, without dual CP3. So you STILL think Casper weighs 5900? Please. Yes there are lies, no 5900, no 1500' DA, it's not a subject of debate, it's a matter of record.

This thread is about the dyno test on the GT40R. Drag testing was done at LACR. Your truck dyno'd 720 and ran 11.95 at LACR. Casper dyno'd 670 and ran 11.89 there. Allowing for the weight difference, I'd say the numbers are on the same base.

Back at the mag shootout, IIRC, Casper ran ~12.6x with 58x HP. So I added 90 hp and dropped 0.8. Sounds right, eh?

Seems everytime I do any testing you are sticking your nose in and slamming the tests. The problem with this is Casper is not the only truck running my tuning past 650hp on fuel. Even on a Dynojet, it's in the 670's.

Fact is, your #2 setup you sell is an underacheiver, so instead of just working on it, you need to slam others to hide the fact. Both PPE and I (and some others) can squeeze the performance out of these Dual Fueler systems, why can't you?
 
PS - And please forgive me if I didn't accept a gift of a fuse from your crew. Seems that is a gift horse with bad teeth.

Thanks for the offer (again for the 3rd time).

When the kids are at the track, Kat and I avoid racing each other, so she entered brackets and I didn't. Fuse or no fuse, my day was over and I watched the kids. The only truck there I needed to outrun was the PPE truck, nothing with a TTS sticker was competitive.
 
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