Rusted Injectors

MikeDually

MikeDually

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Dec 4, 2007
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I need some help guys. My truck is at Unlimited Diesel in Bremen Oh. Adam recommended I give them a call and they currently have my truck. I got some pics from them today and I offered to toss a thread out on CompD to help with diagnosis. A couple threads a talked with a bunch of you about Diesel in my coolant, the coolant has been sent out to be tested and we are waiting for results. Here is a quote that I took from an Email that Nate sent me " On the passengers side there were two injectors that have major RUST on them. It is not just where they were burnt by the copper, they are definetly rusting... On the drivers side there were two injectors that the coppers had definetly not sealed and had burnt the tips of the injectors, and also started to melt the lower o-ring. Also, we noted that some of the injectors were missing the filters where the fuel enters. I would recommend replacing them, as I believe that they are there to catch any kind of debris that may get passed the fuel filters... I have had the pressure tester on the cooling system for about 2 1/2 hours now and it has only dropped one pound, so it is very hard to find the leak."

Here is link to my pics, there are a bunch so I'm redirecting to an album
http://picasaweb.google.com/MikeDowns75/CabOff_Injectors#
 
Glad you are getting it squared away and sorry I could not help, but I got stuck on 7 - 10s that hopefully ends this week(gotta get mine fixed). It sounds like your problems are past my realm anyhow. Maybe you have some injector sleeves that are bad? Also I know some people use 7.3 coppers because they are a little thicker. Good luck and hope you get it fixed.
 
I understand that the rust is from Water. But in the pics the bowls appear rusted, how does SS rust? Let me be a little more clear on what I am asking. If we have pressure tested the system and pressure is not dropping, shouldn't that reveal that it is NOT a cracked head. We are going to rering the injectors, replace the ones that "ate" their screens, replace the injectors that are rusted, change all the fuel bowls, and install new washers.

Does anyone think that will solve the problem of fuel entering the coolant. I'm assuming it is fuel for now, until the coolant analysis results come back. Or could the heads still be cracked and they should be removed and bench tested?
 
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Hey Mike, I will try to keep you and everyone updated on the progress of whats going on. And If anyone has suggestions, feel free to do so.

So far we are still waiting on the o-rings and injector cups, but we should have something this afternoon.
 
I wonder if the head might not have a small crack that won't open under a pressure test when everything is cold...but will open via heat expansion when the motor is running ?
 
This is interesting. The injector cups that you speak of are the stainless steel inserts that are put into the injector holes of the head right? A couple of years ago i put a set of dynomite diesel injectors in my truck when i had the cab off to do studs and i ended up having #3 and #5 injector o-rings role and get cut on me when i torqued them. I pulled them out and put new o-rings and copper washers on. Then about a month later i had #1 and #7 injectors loosen up on me. When i pulled them out i noticed that the copper washers on both injectors where gone and my guess where melted off. I put new o-rings and copper washers on these two injectors and all has been good since, all except that since then i've had a bad injector knock where the injectors are really noisy. Fuel pressure has been consistantly staying at 60psi. so i know that the injector o-rings and copper washers are sealing up everything, but i still wonder if the stainless steel injector cups on #1 and #7 injectors where damaged when the copper washers were melted off? Maybe they're fine but i'm not sure. Is it hard to replace the injector cups?
 
If what you say is true UnBroken, then a bench test wouldn't prove the crack either, right? Another thing, when I drove the truck to Nate's shop, 200 miles. With the new degas bottle and cap, I get very little fuel in the system. Wouldn't the crack have gotten worse under the stress of 200 miles at 60mph average?
 
I would try pulling the injectors and then pluging in the block heater. Let it warm up for a while then pressure test it. Look into the injector holes where the sleeves are and see if i could see coolant coming out.


Also if there is diesel in the coolant, the diesel will start to ruin plastic bottle. The first place I usually notice this is the cap will not feel right when you srew it on and off.

Steve
 
UNBROKEN said:
I wonder if the head might not have a small crack that won't open under a pressure test when everything is cold...but will open via heat expansion when the motor is running ?
Click to expand...

I'm wondering the same thing Rich... Right now we are waiting on the injector o-rings and cups... It looks like I'm going to have to drive to Columbus :bang (45 minutes) to get the parts in the morning... and also get the tool to replace the cups.

The cups are fairly easy to replace once the Cab is off. :poke:

I would like for someone to look at the pictures that Mike posted a little closer. There are a few pictures in the album of injectors that have the small inlet screens missing. Is this a big deal, and do they have to be replaced, and also...Where the hell did they go??? I'm just curious, because there is already two fuel filters on the truck and Im wondering why the screens are there in the first place. Obviously they were designed to be there for a reason, but why?

The injector Cups themselves are obvoiusly not rusting, i.e., they are stainless, But the injectors definetly are, on #3 and #5 cylinders, then on the #6 and #8 cylinders the coppers and orings are burnt up...

I'm going to assume that 3 and 5 is where the coolant may have been going back into the fuel rail after the truck has been shut off... because if its going to leak fuel in the coolant, then it is possible that the coolant could leak back in the injector cup when there is no opposing pressure from the fuel...

I am still up in the air whether I should remove the heads and have them pressure tested also, just to make sure that there isn't something retarded going on in the fuel rail.

Sorry for such a long post, but I'm use to installing EGR deletes, head gaskets, studs, exhaust, and programmers...Not trying to determine cross contaminating fluids....:bang:bang:bang:bang:bang

:thankyou2:
 
There are different grades of stainless steel, and some do rust. Wouldn't think injector cups would be a grade that would rust, but maybe you got some from a defective run?
 
I'm also entertaining that maybe the injectors with the burnt coppers weren't seated in the head good and the combustion pressure forced the injector cup to come up off of the bottom of its seat and allow fuel to enter at the top of the cup, between the injector orings... What a $h!tty setup!!! I really think that if one of the cups was cracked, it would have shown up when we pressurized the cooling system, and sprayed them with soapy water. I'm used to seeing injector cups with cracks i can see... 7.3's...
 
I looked at the pics yesterday.
1..I have no idea why the screens are gone
2...I really have no idea where they went when they left.
I almost think they were installed that way.

I had some o-rings go bad years ago and those screens caught all the crap that came from the disintegrated o-rings.

If they're in the head still....somehow...they definitely need to come out.

Lastly....when you re-install the injectors get the coppers from a 7.3 injector. They're just a hair thicker and seal better at the 6.0 torque spec without lifting the injector so much to cause sealing issues with the o-rings.
 
I would definitely pull the heads being as far in as you already are. If they are flat and look o.k. you could get them magnafluxed, only real way to find cracks that don't show till it's hot. All this surely sucks for you, but if the truck is a keeper, studs and knowing the heads are good might be worth it in the long run?
 
Rich I've read from lots of posts on here that 7.3 washers will alter the spray pattern of the injector making it less efficient. Is that not true?

Nate would bench testing the head help get past the fact that the engine is not warm, and the crack is not exposed. Stupid physics question, wouldn't a crack be more pronounced when cold? Metal "shrinks " when cold, right?
 
Just a hair thicker... Nice measurement. It will just throw the timing off a little bit. If you don't q-tip the bolt holes, they tend to throw off your torque number. 26 is the magical number. Using a 1/2 drive torque wrench that doesn't really go that low ain't gonna be fun to do it over again.

Reusing coppers is not an option. Heat with stainless, copper, and iron can throw off the pressure test. The loctite around the SS cups when removed may give you a little more info on what really happend. Remember that the glow plugs also sit in a coolant passage as well.
 
PSDPlayer said:
Just a hair thicker... Nice measurement.
Click to expand...

Sorry I don't have the specs in front of me like you do....jerk. :poke: LOL

Anyway...myself and countless others using the 7.3 washers have never had any issues...and I always torqued to 32...not 26 anyway.

That'll give Doug fits too....LOL
 
UNBROKEN said:
Sorry I don't have the specs in front of me like you do....jerk. :poke: LOL

Anyway...myself and countless others using the 7.3 washers have never had any issues...and I always torqued to 32...not 26 anyway.

That'll give Doug fits too....LOL
Click to expand...

And your stuff is always taken care of. For all of those with no problems is a guy that is sitting there asking himself why oh why did I do this.
 
PSDPlayer said:
And your stuff is always taken care of.
Click to expand...

Anxiously awaiting 20,000+ dollar check for out of pocket motor swap expenses.....LOL
But thank you Doug for your generosity during the process...it's not forgotten.


OK..back on track.

I agree with whoever said to pull the heads and magnaflux them....being this far in already it only makes sense.
That water is coming form somewhere...and it's not coming from a burnt copper or a missing screen.
 
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