Serious question for all 12V performance junkies!

[gstanfield]

OK, so I have an idea/thought/question here for the devoted followers of the P-pump. In a past life I spent some time as an electrician building garbage trucks and dealt a lot with the V-mac system. I was wondering if anyone has looked into retrofitting a V-mac system on the 12V dodge? It uses the same basic pump as the dodge version, but with some electronic controls. The biggest factor that I think would be a huge benefit is the hydralic actuated, electronically controlled "econovance" timing control system. It allows the P-7100 (or P-8000) pump to advance and retard timing to allow for better power at all RPM's as well as maximum fuel economy. They system is pretty much self contained and requires only a very simple arrangement of sensors.

The biggest change would be a to an electric foot feed, but I think the newer trucks have this so it may be easier than I would think. A simple hand held programmer allows you to set a bunch of parameters on these thigns, including ramp rate, decel ramp rate, speed limiters, max boost, etc.


So, anyone ever look into this? If interested I can provide a lot mroe information on the system, but thought if it's been tried and found more work than benefit I'd save some typing. It just seems the biggest weakness of the P-pump is a lack of timing advance and this would provide for it.

George

 

[Phooker]

hmm...this sounds interesting

 

[CC12V]

Hybriding a variable advance pump is the next step for us "dinosour 12v er's".We just haven't been pushed out of our cave yet to feel the need.
I laugh when people talk of the dinosour 12v. It maybe a dinosour but its a T Rex on steroids.
The set up you speak of is a huge HP gain for sure.:evil

 

[DART505]

Ok Joe figure it out so I can have BIG timing & we just make it not have all of it untill 15/20 psi boost.:blahblah1: oke: :ft:

 

[ericjk42002]

The unit pumps (injectors) run off the camshaft.....so it would take a custom cam, block, head and god knows what else. Sounds like a fun project.

 

[ericjk42002]

Your thinking of the E7 not the V-Mac.......the E7 has a P7100 with a mech advance unit. The V-Mac has 6 unit pumps that run off the cam.

 

[AsTroSS]

We talking about : Zexel Timing and Injection rate Control System (TICS) ?op:

 

[ericjk42002]

No I havent seen one of those on a Mack.........what the hell is that. I didnt even know I wanted one of those until just now.

 

[gstanfield]

Your thinking of the E7 not the V-Mac.......the E7 has a P7100 with a mech advance unit. The V-Mac has 6 unit pumps that run off the cam.

No, I was referring to the V-mac system. It was first used in 1991. I have a pretty good book on the systems as I used to program them. It used a P-7100 and P-8000 pump and only a different rear assembly. The V-mac system was used on EM7-250,275,300 and E7-300,350 and 400 series engines. It is still the V-mac system.

The system uses two microporcessors: the V-mac module built for Mack by Motorola, and a fuel injection control module built by Robert Bosch GmbH. Two models of the Robery Bosch in-line injection pump are used: the P-7100 and the P-8000.

The conversion of a Dodge spec P-7100 to V-mac would be a fairly simple conversion, as far as these thigns go anyway. I was just curious if anyone else has considerd this and the advantages it offers.

George

 

[RacinDuallie]

Got my interest....op: op:

Nice pic Astro- you always amaze me with the info you dig up!:rockwoot: :bow: :evil :Cheer:

 

[ericjk42002]

I'm not sure what you are talking about, Mack used mechanical injection until early 1999, then they switched to the first V-mac's for the 2000 model year with the timing being controlled by the ecu and vcu. I'm sure you are talking about the EM7 aka the E7(econodyne mechanical injected 7 series) which uses the same basic Bosh pump as our Dodges. The major differences on the Mack pumps are the mounting snout (unbolts from the pump) they are right side mounted, air or cable shut off, puff limiter (to keep down smoke:hehe: ) and yes they use a mechanical advance on the pump drive gear. A good machine shop/ fab shop could no doubt retrofit said advance to a Cummins:evil

 

[AsTroSS]

Got my interest....op: op:

Nice pic Astro- you always amaze me with the info you dig up!:rockwoot: :bow: :evil :Cheer:

Timing And Injection Rate Control System - TICS

Tics is a sophisticated system that detects engine conditions, vehicle speed, coolant temperature, accelerator angle, etc to control the fuel-injection engine, and vehicle to the highest efficiency at all times.
To control the volume and timing of injection, TICS has an electronic governor with a linear DC motor, and an electromagnetic rotary actuator. In addition, it has a movable timing sleeve for prestroke control to realize a variable injection rate (pressure).
At low speed, the prestroke is increased to raise the injection pressure so that smoke emissions and improved while increasing the torque. At high speed, the prestroke is reduced to advance the injection timing while suppressing an excessive increase of the injection pressure to decrease NOx emissions.


:evil

And few pictures of different type:

 

[gstanfield]

I'm not sure what you are talking about, Mack used mechanical injection until early 1999, then they switched to the first V-mac's for the 2000 model year with the timing being controlled by the ecu and vcu. I'm sure you are talking about the EM7 aka the E7(econodyne mechanical injected 7 series) which uses the same basic Bosh pump as our Dodges. The major differences on the Mack pumps are the mounting snout (unbolts from the pump) they are right side mounted, air or cable shut off, puff limiter (to keep down smoke:hehe: ) and yes they use a mechanical advance on the pump drive gear. A good machine shop/ fab shop could no doubt retrofit said advance to a Cummins:evil

OK, I don't have the time right now, but in the next day or two I will scan in a few pages of reading for those not familiar with the early 90's V-mac system used on the P-pumps. It's good reading and from all the research I've done it would only require the diffrent P-pump, control system and a little wiring.

Also, the first V-mac came out in 1991 according to my text book written in the mid 90's.

Like I said, look for several pages scanned in sometime towards the end of week.

George

 

[Billysgoat]

Okay, here's my question, why is this the first time this has been heard of?? I know Jeff Garmon got his start working on, among other things, Mack trucks. It would be logical to assume that some other diesel guru has at least toyed with this system before, and if it will do all that you say it will George (and I don't doubt that it will one bit) it seems like it would be the cat's azz.

BTW, I'm thinking about a 12V, and I'm already familiar with industrial and automotive control systems (hint, hint) :evil LOL LOL

 

[gunracer1]

do any one of you guys remember a guy that went by oregon farmer? supposed to have come up with a variable timing set up and moved to brazil to get it built.

 

[gstanfield]

I'm leaving work right now, going to a meeting and then I should be home in a couple of hours. When I do get home I will scan in about 5 pages of reading material for you guys. I'm sure there is a reason why it hasn't been done before, but looking at the schematics I cannot see just why that would be. To be honest there was about a 6 year gap between me working on Macks and me buying my 12V, so I cannot remember for sure the configuration of the pump setups, only that it used a computer and a P-7100 and had timing advance.

For some reason I kinda remember hearing that it's only a 8 degree range of advance, nothing like what you can get from a CR, but still a lot if you set initial low timing at around 12 degree giving a max timing of 20. Should make for a hell of a daily driver.

OH well, we'll all get this figured out later, but look back tonight for some god reading and we'll see if we can't piece this all together. It may be feasible, it may not be....

George

 

[gstanfield]

OK, all pages scanned from "Diesel Engine & Fuel System Repair" by John F. Dagel third edition copyright 1994.

OK, there is more information about the system, this is just a general overview of it. I'll see if I can get a good picture of the P-7100 pump as configured with a V-mac system and maybe we can see where the difference lies. I'm not sure if this system would be worth the trouble of converting it, but the idea itself certainly intrigues me.

George

 

[ATIS]

We talking about : Zexel Timing and Injection rate Control System (TICS) ?op:

Hi Can anyone provide Zexel Technical/Service manuals-cds-dvds for the TICS range of pumps/govs, any info would be greatly appreciated
Kind Regards
Richard Passehl
Affordable Turbo & Injection Service
atis@internode.on.net

 

[ATIS]

OK, all pages scanned from "Diesel Engine & Fuel System Repair" by John F. Dagel third edition copyright 1994.

OK, there is more information about the system, this is just a general overview of it. I'll see if I can get a good picture of the P-7100 pump as configured with a V-mac system and maybe we can see where the difference lies. I'm not sure if this system would be worth the trouble of converting it, but the idea itself certainly intrigues me.

George

Hi George
Im not sure what info you are looking for, however the P7 Vmac pump is a edc controlled pump, Do you mean by "converting it" changing the system back to mechanical gov?
Regards Rick

 

[ATIS]

Hi George, where can I get a copy of "Diesel Engine & Fuel System Repair" by John F. Dagel third edition copyright 1994.? can you help?
Regards Rick