Turbo matching Scania DC16

[TDIfreak]

The engine is 16 liter V8 PD and we want broad powerband since it's used both on small forest tracks and highway, with 70-80 metric tonnes total mass or whatever they dare to go with nowadays. And occasional hill climb LOL.
It has marine injectors, about the largest you can get. I think we are at about 1000hp now.

Stock turbo is either Garrett GT4502 with 75 comp and 80 turbine or HX60 with similar wheels. Those work great from idle to 1300 rpm...

We have been useing HX60 with 80/86 wheels and #27 housing without any gate. This is great overall turbo with broad powerband but EGTs climb easily above 800C at higher rpm. Max boost is 3.1 bar or about 45 psi. We also tried this with #36 housing and as suspected, it works tiny bit better at high rpm but at low rpm boost falls and EGTs climb. I had to pull fueling from smoke map to keep smoking reasonable at lower boost.

Next we are trying HX60 with larger wheels on both end and a couple of housings also. Personally I would like to test BW Airwerks products but cannot find any good candidate, would like some help from the forum on this one. :bow:

 

[Leiffi]

80/92 Holset worked great with old 14 litre engine, 32 housing was little bit lazy down low, 27 would have been better, 16 liter might need little bit wastegating with that housing. I have already suggested that many times to your Scania specialist.

Another one would be same GT50 I have in my Volvo, but machined to Scania housings.

 

[TDIfreak]

Initial result with 85/92 Holset and same tune as with 80/86 Holset. EGT fell down a lot, now it's hard to go over 700C. #32 TH was so lazy we put #27 gated housing but gate stays closed. Still at 1000 rpm there is not a lot going on, it starts to pull at about 1200 rpm.

With a bit more fuel added max boost is about 3,5 bar, no exhaust pressure figures yet.

Waiting for more results with full loads and maybe get EMP gauge before deciding what to do next.

 

[tall boy]

We know these DC16 engine very well and we can offer a far better turbo than the OE ones for these engines that will almost a drop in as a replacement for the HX60.

We done a load of testing on a Scania 13L XPI race engine running over 1100Hp (no smoke) with 730c Max EGT in front of the turbine with both the 76mm and 80mm compressor wheel.
The BorgWarner turbo we build have a far better efficiency than what OE has to offer.
We can offer these with a 76mm 80mm or 82mm compressor wheel and 0.66A/R compressor cover or the brand new 78/105mm or 82/110mm wheel with the 0.72A/R compressor cover but for the last two he have to look if it will fit on the compressor side.
Drive pressure or EMP is a bit lower as OE with the hi flow turbine wheel we use.

Comparison HX60 76mm to BorgWarner S400SX 76mm compressor wheel

AFR difference

Comparison HX60 80mm to BorgWarner S400SX 80mm compressor wheel

We also offer bigger injectors (30% bigger) but for this you will need a turbo that spools fast as chance is that you will get smoke to easy off boost but this can also be related on how the OE ECU is set-up with begin injection on low boost. So far we only run one test on a R500 with a very lazy none waste gate turbo making 30% more torque on the factory ECU settings. We run them on motor sport applications with our own engine management.

Drop me a message is you want more info

 

[TDIfreak]

First day with full timber load on the Scania. Anywhere above 1200 rpm driver is very happy. EGT max 715C when accelerating long uphill from 50 to 90 km/h useing 1500-1800 rpm. 3.3-3.4 bar boost.

But when rpms are going down from 1200 with 2,5 bar boost it is making 'tsup tsup tsup' so I think the compressor is slightly too big.

I'm gonna change start of injection at low rpm to see if we can help the low end. If the truck had slightly lower final gear ratio we could happily finish this project now.

 

[tall boy]

But when rpms are going down from 1200 with 2,5 bar boost it is making 'tsup tsup tsup' so I think the compressor is slightly too big.

If a wastegate is used it dos not help in low RPM keeping boost up. A HX60 80mm billet wheel should drop off boost @ about 1050RPM but intercooler and exhaust restriction on a hot engine can do funny things.

 

[TDIfreak]

It's 85 mm billett wheel, not 80 and the wastegate will not open unless excessive EMP (@ high rpm).

 

[Leiffi]

It's 85 mm billett wheel, not 80 and the wastegate will not open unless excessive EMP (@ high rpm).

Anything over 82 mm is too big for those rpms you want it to work at. I'd use 80 mm compressor from Holset.

 

[tall boy]

It's 85 mm billett wheel, not 80 and the wastegate will not open unless excessive EMP (@ high rpm).

Sounds like a crappy 85mm combination as a BW S588SX will do the same with a load more top end assuming the D16G Volvo engine we done with modified cam drops off boost under 1000Rpm with a S588SX assuming it swallows about 20% more air than an OE DC16.
Hard to say what the spool up will do on a .85A/R TH and you need to find a way to wastegate it as well but it got a bigger 99/109mm turbine wheel on this turbo but it’s a serious big turbo just for making 1000Hp.

A 76mm can make 1000Hp on a XPI 13L and a 80mm must be able to do this on a DC16 and a 82mm wheel must be very able. Giving a DC16 PD a load more air drops EGT but the underline is extending injection for more power dos not result in the same efficiency as the end of combustion moves to far to the exhaust stroke. Fitting a bigger injector will resolve this but as a PD injector depend on plunger travel speed to build fuel pressure your efficiency will drop on low engine speed needing boost to get things going combustion wise. What we have done is advance the pump cam to get more fuel in with the same begin of injection as the cam slope get more progressive in advance timing.

 

[Leiffi]

Sounds like a crappy 85mm combination as a BW S588SX will do the same with a load more top end assuming the D16G Volvo engine we done with modified cam drops off boost under 1000Rpm.

Too big compressor for HX60 turbine, it was meant to work with max 80mm compressor.

 

[TDIfreak]

It would be hard decision to go back to 80 where we have been couple of years with high EGT and now things look so much better in that sense.

I guess I went a bit overboard with the 85 but at least we found the upper limit on first try .

 

[tall boy]

It would be hard decision to go back to 80 where we have been couple of years with high EGT and now things look so much better in that sense.

I guess I went a bit overboard with the 85 but at least we found the upper limit on first try .

I feel a bit sorry for the fuel consumption running this big compressor but the question is what effort do you want to put in it to get it working better as for now you mask things up with a load of air dropping EGT.

 

[Leiffi]

It would be hard decision to go back to 80 where we have been couple of years with high EGT and now things look so much better in that sense.

I guess I went a bit overboard with the 85 but at least we found the upper limit on first try .

You have not used this big turbinewheel earlier if I understand right ? It makes a big difference to everything.

 

[Leiffi]

It would be hard decision to go back to 80 where we have been couple of years with high EGT and now things look so much better in that sense.

I guess I went a bit overboard with the 85 but at least we found the upper limit on first try .

+850°C doesnt seem to be a problem for this R560, there is not long enough climbs in Finland or Sweden to melt it.

 

[TDIfreak]

It's totally drivable and far from crap according to the owner/driver. It does not surge when accelerating, only when coming down at full boost. Just needs to halve the gear on uphills (if driving 80 km/h). I was just sitting in the cockpit for a small trip and made some changes to the tune, helping it go without smoke. Earlier SOI did not make any noticeable difference, no surprise though.

Next turbo will be either 82/92 Holset or something from the Netherlands but we have now time to gather more results and make hopefully the best decision .

Thanks for the comments guys :Cheer:.

 

[Leiffi]

Not bad.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ermkVYA7QZU

 

[TDIfreak]

Thanks for the link.

Some smoke at the start to spool up the turbo but then it goes clean and hard.
Won it's class by a clear margin. Some Scania that were said to be 1000hp were far behind, but I have no better guess of the hp. Unknown injector flow and some extra dose of Rapid make it hard to say.

Leiffi you didn't do bad either, class winner?

 

[Leiffi]

Leiffi you didn't do bad either, class winner?

Yes, about second faster than next one. Only 2,2 bar boost, others were running 3-4 bar, GT50 seems to flow well.

 

[SmokinCAT]

Sounds like a crappy 85mm combination as a BW S588SX will do the same with a load more top end assuming the D16G Volvo engine we done with modified cam drops off boost under 1000Rpm with a S588SX assuming it swallows about 20% more air than an OE DC16.
Hard to say what the spool up will do on a .85A/R TH and you need to find a way to wastegate it as well but it got a bigger 99/109mm turbine wheel on this turbo but it’s a serious big turbo just for making 1000Hp.

A 76mm can make 1000Hp on a XPI 13L and a 80mm must be able to do this on a DC16 and a 82mm wheel must be very able. Giving a DC16 PD a load more air drops EGT but the underline is extending injection for more power dos not result in the same efficiency as the end of combustion moves to far to the exhaust stroke. Fitting a bigger injector will resolve this but as a PD injector depend on plunger travel speed to build fuel pressure your efficiency will drop on low engine speed needing boost to get things going combustion wise. What we have done is advance the pump cam to get more fuel in with the same begin of injection as the cam slope get more progressive in advance timing.

BW has flow numbers that say the 96/88mm S400 turbine in the 1.32 housing out flows the S500 in the .85 so that housing is pretty much pointless.