Which pump to go with...

Y

YkDave

New member
Well, after nuking my 215/913 pump im in the market for another pump...

The plan is appx 500hp (in the future), nothing crazy just a bit of snort. I plan on doing a HX35/ST50 twins to hopefully supply the needed air...

Im thinking im best off going with a 160/175/180 pump for the cam and plunger designs.

It looks like im able to get any of these pumps for a reasonable price (the 215 pump is actually cheaper) from a wrecker down south, so its my choice now. Since money is VERY tight im thinking i may just go with another 215 pump and live with the chitty cam and plungers... Surely its capable of 500hp...
 
Theres nothing wrong with 215 pumps, I am putting one in my truck that has over 500cc of fuel.
You just can go over full rack travel, thats when the plungers and barrels start to retard timing.
If 215 pumps are so chitty, then why do people always buy them?
 
tony597fitter said:
If 215 pumps are so chitty, then why do people always buy them?
Click to expand...

They dont know any better:hehe:

Seriously though, I think any of the P-Pumps run about the same after you do the correct modifications to them all. I actually think the 180 pump is about the best, but I dont imagine i will ever get rid of my 160 pump after seeing what people can do with them.

Any of them will certainly make 500hp no problem.

Eric
 
tony597fitter said:
Theres nothing wrong with 215 pumps, I am putting one in my truck that has over 500cc of fuel.
You just can go over full rack travel, thats when the plungers and barrels start to retard timing.
If 215 pumps are so chitty, then why do people always buy them?
Click to expand...


They retard timing 3* at their 'full' rack travel (4* at 21mm)....

One reason not to use one.... Obviously retarded timing is not going to be the best thing you can do for power!

Before we get into the debate of 'bump the timing up to compensate', i need this thing to start up at -50c (or lower) so extremely high base timing is not going to cut it.

I do plan on running slightly higher timing, but i dont plan on going to 20* just to be able to hit 17* @ WOT.
 
Have you read the thread...? 3* retard at 19mm rack travel, 4* at 21mm if you use a mack plug, if you want to keep the plunger out of the retard notches your not going to be moving alot of fuel.

I have not answered it....


Im more curious if the 215 pump is capable of 500hp without having to use excessivly high timing to compensate for the timing retard (which brings the issue of cold starts) and without having to dump a ton of cash into it.

At this point im leaning towards a 180 pump, but if i can get this other 215 pump cheaper im going to want to grab it because cash is tight. but im not going to waste my money on a useless pump
 
what kind of injectors would a guy need for that...?


Im seriously not going to drop 2grand on a set of injectors for this old pos! (its lucky im going to put a new pump on it :hehe:)
 
YkDave said:
Have you read the thread...? 3* retard at 19mm rack travel, 4* at 21mm if you use a mack plug, if you want to keep the plunger out of the retard notches your not going to be moving alot of fuel.

I have not answered it....


Im more curious if the 215 pump is capable of 500hp without having to use excessivly high timing to compensate for the timing retard (which brings the issue of cold starts) and without having to dump a ton of cash into it.

At this point im leaning towards a 180 pump, but if i can get this other 215 pump cheaper im going to want to grab it because cash is tight. but im not going to waste my money on a useless pump
Click to expand...



They retard timing 3* at their 'full' rack travel (4* at 21mm)....

One reason not to use one.... Obviously retarded timing is not going to be the best thing you can do for power!

Before we get into the debate of 'bump the timing up to compensate', i need this thing to start up at -50c (or lower) so extremely high base timing is not going to cut it.

I do plan on running slightly higher timing, but i dont plan on going to 20* just to be able to hit 17* @ WOT.

Why do you think you need 21mm of rack travel?
17-18mm is all you need to get the amount of fuel you want.

The 96-98 manual pumps referred to as 215 pumps (common numbers 887 and 913) have a v-groove plunger not common to other pumps. Also, it's said they have the best governor assembly but can't give you any details why it's the best governor assembly other then I've been told it's the lightest of the auto p7100 assemblies.


The automotive P7100 utilizes an asymmetrical leading edge camshaft design. The 215hp pumps having an upper and lower helix have a higher flow rating @ lower rack travel, however with rack travel over 13mm the LPC is shortened effectively retarding timing. The 160-175-180hp pumps do not have an upper helix, however they do utilize a start-quantity limitation groove on the rear facing helix.


The 160-175hp camshaft has less fill time than the 180-215hp camshaft, the 215hp pump uses a lighter stock assembly than the other 2 models. 160-175-180hp pumps all have flat top plungers while the 215hp pump has emission plungers. 160-175hp pumps have 131 delivery valves, 180-215hp pumps have 181 delivery valves.

The 3 quotes come from Smokem. If you need more SEARCH like I have.
 
YkDave said:
what kind of injectors would a guy need for that...?


Im seriously not going to drop 2grand on a set of injectors for this old pos! (its lucky im going to put a new pump on it :hehe:)
Click to expand...

2GRAND!!:hehe:

You can get an awesome set for brand new for $500, with the correct spray pattern
 
please tell me where i can get a set of injectors that will get me 500hp with 13mm rack travel on a 215 pump for $500....?

Its hard to see a small set of injectors for that price
 
tony597fitter said:
They retard timing 3* at their 'full' rack travel (4* at 21mm)....

One reason not to use one.... Obviously retarded timing is not going to be the best thing you can do for power!

Before we get into the debate of 'bump the timing up to compensate', i need this thing to start up at -50c (or lower) so extremely high base timing is not going to cut it.

I do plan on running slightly higher timing, but i dont plan on going to 20* just to be able to hit 17* @ WOT.

Why do you think you need 21mm of rack travel?
17-18mm is all you need to get the amount of fuel you want.

17-18mm is still retarding the timing

The 96-98 manual pumps referred to as 215 pumps (common numbers 887 and 913) have a v-groove plunger not common to other pumps. Also, it's said they have the best governor assembly but can't give you any details why it's the best governor assembly other then I've been told it's the lightest of the auto p7100 assemblies.

so we are just going by word of mouth here...?


The automotive P7100 utilizes an asymmetrical leading edge camshaft design. The 215hp pumps having an upper and lower helix have a higher flow rating @ lower rack travel, however with rack travel over 13mm the LPC is shortened effectively retarding timing. The 160-175-180hp pumps do not have an upper helix, however they do utilize a start-quantity limitation groove on the rear facing helix.

Yes they flow alot down low, but how do they compare to a 160/175/180 with 19/21mm rack travel?

The 160-175hp camshaft has less fill time than the 180-215hp camshaft, the 215hp pump uses a lighter stock assembly than the other 2 models. 160-175-180hp pumps all have flat top plungers while the 215hp pump has emission plungers. 160-175hp pumps have 131 delivery valves, 180-215hp pumps have 181 delivery valves.

The DVs are no issue, if i were to get a pump with 131s i would put my 181s in it

The 3 quotes come from Smokem. If you need more SEARCH like I have.
Click to expand...




What exactly did we acomplish here?
 
im looking for proof... real world experience on which pump would do the trick.. not just some internet BS or theories...



The ol' internet dyno usally isnt anything close to the real world! :doh:



So are we saying that a 215 pump with 13mm rack travel will move more fuel than any other pump with 21mm? thats what it sounds like to me...
 
I have a 215 on my 98 dually benched at 500cc's but they custom ground a plate at the exact mm of rack travel before it started to cut back. My brothers 180 pump (97 auto pump) without the mack rack plug moves more fuel and makes more power than mine ever did. They are easier to find than the 215 and typically cheaper cores to buy. Tim
 
YkDave said:
please tell me where i can get a set of injectors that will get me 500hp with 13mm rack travel on a 215 pump for $500....?

Its hard to see a small set of injectors for that price
Click to expand...

I and many others on here have gotten BRAND NEW (12 valve truck application) 145* spray angle Bosch injectors EDMd to 5x.012, 5x.014, 5x.016 for $500.

A 5x.012 is good to 700hp.

But I'm sure you will tell me I'm wrong.
 
My brother did 521 on a set of Bosch marine 300's (40-50 horse) untouched and they are like 60$ bucks apiece. I would say $360 fits the budget.
 
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