At what point are o rings needed??

97singlecab

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How high of horsepower will a stock head gasket and 12mm studs hold? I just put all new parts in my truck and the gasket is toast after only two full throttle passes. Coolant is coming out between the block and the head.:bang Do you guys think that o rings are necessary to get this thing to seal? I regularly see 60-65 psi of boost.
 
I'm not o-ringed with standard arp's right around 700 hp. My timings been back and forth from 22*-27* and 55-65psi boost. I've done at least 5 hot re-torques with my final torque at 135 ft.lbs. I have about 15k miles on this gasket.
 
I'm running 20 degrees of timing. I retorqued it twice before running over 10 psi of boost. I started out with coolant coming out of the stud, got that sealed and now its coming out between the block and the head. I started the engine today for the first time in two days and the coolant started pouring out between the block and the head as soon as it was started.
 
I did one torque then left the block heater plugged in over night and did a final torque. That was back in April and I have done none since. I push 45psi and my timing is at 19°.
 
You could try a hot retorque and see if that helps. Brad Ponci is the one that told me about doing the retorques on a hot engine and it worked out well. Another thing to check is making sure that it is the gasket leaking because I thought I had the same problem. Mine ended up being cracks in the head about halfway between the short studs and the injectors on 3 of my cylinders.
 
were you able to find the cracks with out pulling the head or does it need to come off again to find them. I'm just wondering if I need to o ring it for this next time. Don't really wanna do it a third time. But I also don't really have the money to o ring it right now either.
 
Flux it if you pull it and find the cracks. If you have it pulled then ring it.
 
were you able to find the cracks with out pulling the head or does it need to come off again to find them. I'm just wondering if I need to o ring it for this next time. Don't really wanna do it a third time. But I also don't really have the money to o ring it right now either.

The cracks are external about 2" down from the injector.
 
I finally got the head off my truck last night. The head gasket is messed up and you can clearly see where the coolant was blowing out of it between 4 and 5. I still need to check the head for cracks and flatness. Will a common rail mls head gasket work on a 12v or is the stock 12v gasket better. I have a brand new common rail one I could put in it.
 
do not use the mls style gasket, there has been many problems with the cometic gaskets sealing properly, even with perfectly flat sealing surfaces. the newer cummins gaskets are pretty forgiving if the sealing surfaces are not perfectly flat. i would definately have the head checked for cracks, flatness, and then have orings installed by a reputable shop that has experience installing orings on cummins B cylinder heads, if you have orings, when you do the initial torque, fire up the truck and let it come up to opertaing temp, you can drive it around, but keep the rpms, and boost very low, like no more than 8-10psi an the rpms below 1800-2000, go back and do a hot retoruqe, plug in your block heater, that will help retain heat in the engine. i torqued my studs to 130 ft lb., set your valves again, becuase they are going to be tight, after that you can drive around for about 500miles, still with low boost, and rpm, just be very easy on it, go back and do another hot retoruqe. after that you can start to romp on it a little bit, but do not flogg it all the time, put about 2,500 miles on it, and go back and do another hot retorque. after that your should have a nice and tight head that should last you a long time with no issues. also make sure you set your valves each time you do a retorque because the gasket is settling more each time, and changine the valve lash. while you have the head off, if you have access to a good straight edge, check the block straightness also, no more than .02 thousandths end to end. if it is more than that, your going to have sealing issues, you will need to have the block deck surfaced. good luck!

Wes
 
o-rings wont seal coolant passages any better, only the cylinders themselves If you are messing with high timing and decent amounts of boost, o-rings might be a good investment for a little surety. Make sure you do hot retorques too. Maybe shave the head flat, flux it, o-ring it and do a .020 over gasket to compensate for the material taken off.

Make sure you let the truck warm up before you start ripping full throttle passes.
 
do not use the mls style gasket, there has been many problems with the cometic gaskets sealing properly, even with perfectly flat sealing surfaces. the newer cummins gaskets are pretty forgiving if the sealing surfaces are not perfectly flat. i would definately have the head checked for cracks, flatness, and then have orings installed by a reputable shop that has experience installing orings on cummins B cylinder heads, if you have orings, when you do the initial torque, fire up the truck and let it come up to opertaing temp, you can drive it around, but keep the rpms, and boost very low, like no more than 8-10psi an the rpms below 1800-2000, go back and do a hot retoruqe, plug in your block heater, that will help retain heat in the engine. i torqued my studs to 130 ft lb., set your valves again, becuase they are going to be tight, after that you can drive around for about 500miles, still with low boost, and rpm, just be very easy on it, go back and do another hot retoruqe. after that you can start to romp on it a little bit, but do not flogg it all the time, put about 2,500 miles on it, and go back and do another hot retorque. after that your should have a nice and tight head that should last you a long time with no issues. also make sure you set your valves each time you do a retorque because the gasket is settling more each time, and changine the valve lash. while you have the head off, if you have access to a good straight edge, check the block straightness also, no more than .02 thousandths end to end. if it is more than that, your going to have sealing issues, you will need to have the block deck surfaced. good luck!

Wes

He didn't say anything about using a Cometic head gasket.

Put the MLS gasket on the block and see how much and where need to be punched out for the cooling passages.
 
no a 3rd gen MLS gasket wont work.


alot of times when coolant is leaking from the gasket its because the coolant passages have been pressurized from combustion gasses leaking out of the cylinder, thus pushing the coolant out.

when my HG blew, it pushed out from the cylinder and caused oil/coolant to mix, makes a mess. but i had no external leaks on the engine, i didnt know it was blown until i saw oil in the radiator.
 
maybe something has changed...but i know oil/coolant passages were not the same
 
I have 137k miles on stock head gasket. 12mm ARP's torqued to 140 and 55-60psi regularly... 50+ sled hooks. (Lately sees 4000+ Rpms when pulling.) Im sure it will go one day but I am impressed with how well just the studs have held things in tact.
 
I have 137k miles on stock head gasket. 12mm ARP's torqued to 140 and 55-60psi regularly... 50+ sled hooks. (Lately sees 4000+ Rpms when pulling.) Im sure it will go one day but I am impressed with how well just the studs have held things in tact.

Thats what is pissing me off the worst is my engine with 260k miles on it and stock head bolts held this exact same setup for the last year and a half. I pulled the motor to fix the timing cover and decided to put a fresh head gasket and studs in it. I knew I never should of messed with it, but oh well. I don't think i'm going to use the mls gasket i'll just get another stock dodge one. I'm gonna make some calls tomorrow and get some pricing on o ringing the head. Thanks for all the input on this guys.
 
If you've got 260k miles, then the head is most likely cracked.

Now this is my personal opinion:

I don't understand why anyone would pull the head and NOT get it o-ringed. I got my head fluxed, decked, and o-ringed for $418.68 with tax. That is stupid cheap compared to having my truck down again.

They ended up taking .008 off the head to make it flat (thats a lot), so I went with a .020 modified 12v head gasket from Snedge. Great service, perfect product, and he was prompt with everything. I'll send him business in the future.

I guess what I'm getting at is this: compared to having to rebuild the bottom end because you got anti-freeze in the bearings, a good o-ring job is worth every penny. You've already got the head off the block, why not just drop the extra 3 bills and have it done right? One less thing to worry about in my humble opinion.
 
when you removed the head the first time you may have slightly tweak the head alittle to where the gsket would not seal properly. I have 160K on a stock gasket, 55-60lbs of boost and close 80 hooks to a sled and never had the head off. Although it is a common rail
 
oring it and forget about it, i also meant to sy the commonrail MLS gasket when i metioned the MLS gasket, i didn't think they worked either.

Wes
 
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