Mind sharing? Not like the 6.0 section get's a whole lot of topics going anyways...:Cheer:
Bio-Diesel
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Mind sharing? Not like the 6.0 section get's a whole lot of topics going anyways...:Cheer:
powerjunky
diesel addict
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Oregon, thanks to our wonderful govner ( yes I spelled it wrong on purpose.) we have a % of all diesel sold has bio. We had a cold snap here (-11 for a week.) I was driving truck and my pickup sat. When I got back the bio had seperated and gelled. I spent 3hrs with a propane heater on the tank to warm it up so it would run. My fuel mileage has dropped from 16-18 to 12-14. In the big truck it has dropped from 5 to 3.5 and less power. BIO SUCKS.
I agree bio does suck, i had it gell on me at 30 degrees, 100 percent no.2 would have never gelled at that temp.
Spectre32
Welding Extraordinaire!
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Well I've done/ been involved in allot of research in regard to Bio diesel science and production. I'm by no mean an chemist or anything like that as my involvement is focused more on the actual production side, but I am educated on the total process. It is my personal opinion that WVO is not the best thing to be running through your diesel. In theory the WVO people heat the WVO up to some set temperature(>200 F) in order to make the oil less viscus, so it can be sent to the injectors and then injected. WVO make AWESOME sense for the old school cars like the Benz's and whatnot. There engines are not near as complex as anything built today. The true fact of the matter is that WVO will never get to the viscosity of diesel fuel even at ridiculous high temperatures(300-500 F). So inducing more wear on expensive injector parts is going to happen. Now there are a SLEW of companies out there that make these kits for DI engines. Powerstrokes are a favorite because of the injection system. I think, recently they now make them for the Cummins and Dmax's too. So yes while you may have lubrication benefits and what not of the oil(as you would with biodiesel) you also have this issue of the fuel not chemically getting close to regular diesel and you will have increased wear. That's not to say Bio diesel is any better as it does have some issues. Its density is greater than diesel thus you can have blowby and whatnot.Since the density is different bio will separate out and cold weather will accelerate this process. As with anything there are additives to reduce this and whatnot however allot of that is beyond your control. That's left up to the blenders and the people who receive the fuel. There are some oil feed stocks that can be run all year round, like Canola oil. However this is a very expensive oil. Soybean is what the US mostly makes and its a good all around feedstock. No matter what the fuel the alternatives all have issues.
WVO is an OK option if your going to be running one car but what happens if you have two cars? Now you need two systems. My Bio diesel setup is pretty expensive, however just like anything you can always do things on the cheap. I had a analysis I did some time ago with WVO vs. Bio diesel and WVO won in a couple of categories(for one car). Your not chemically changing the oil so these no costs associated with that, your not buying/constructing near as much equipment but you still need a way to dewater and filter finally your not required to know a chemical process. The list goes on and this thread can go on forever and its not my place to say one is better or whatever. I have never ran a WVO setup. All I can say is that I have seen scientific fact that proves some rather interesting points and there would be no way on the face of the earth I would ever run WVO through any new style diesel. See if they come out with a WVO for the 6.7. I can tell you right now I can run B20(commercially produced) and still have a factory warranty and not have dual tanks and heated tanks and lines running all over the place.
dieselsmoke0204
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Ive thought about running bio but didnt know, and probably still dont, enough about it to justify testing it out in my truck and messing something up.
Now, that being said, I do know someone, hes a CompD member SwellMel, and he is running a vegistroke kit. I checked it out on his truck and he told me alot about it and I would be willing to invest in something like that. I know he got his from dinofuels.com. It is a pretty hefty investment, yet I know he yields up to 100mpg on diesel!!! I know thats well worth it
Now, that being said, I do know someone, hes a CompD member SwellMel, and he is running a vegistroke kit. I checked it out on his truck and he told me alot about it and I would be willing to invest in something like that. I know he got his from dinofuels.com. It is a pretty hefty investment, yet I know he yields up to 100mpg on diesel!!! I know thats well worth it
I'm also a Vegistroke owner (6.0L) and my favorite personal experiennce is driving from Tampa to Key West and back (towing a 21' boat, 3 passengers, luggage, and SCUBA gear) on veggie oil. I used a whopping 3 gallons of diesel for roughly 850 miles of travel. That's over 280 mpg.
Dino Fuel Alternatives | Alternative Fuel, Vegetable Oil Fuel Systems, Vegistroke & Bio Diesel
--Snake
Dino Fuel Alternatives | Alternative Fuel, Vegetable Oil Fuel Systems, Vegistroke & Bio Diesel
--Snake
dieselsmoke0204
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Snake,
I got a few questions for ya? First, what size take do you have for the vegeoil? The guy I know has the 51 gallon that is mounted in his toolbox. The reason I ask is because for long trips, I wonder what kind of fuel mileage is received from the actual vegeoil? What were to happen if you on lets say a 400 mile trip? Do you bring extra filtered vegeoil with you?
Also, roughly what did you spend on this kit total, with install? I would rather have someone install this for me cuz knowing me, I would screw something up. Thanks for the info
Happy to share my experiences (but I'm far from being the subject matter expert)...
My tank is the 60 gallon tool box combo and I'm seeing about the same fuel economy on WVO as I am on diesel. So that 60 gallon tank should get me about 800 miles. On that trip to the Keys, I knew I'd be going through a lot more oil so I brought down an extra 40 gallons of filtered oil (5 gallon totes x 8 of them) and refilled while I was down there using a funnel.
Total price for me was around $3500 shipped, but I think they're offering less expensive kits (around $2k) that aren't fully automatic. I've seen the installs priced at anywhere from $500 - $1000 and I got lucky: the owners used my vehicle for a TV episode and did the install for free. :rockwoot:
--Snake
JFlagg
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I agree, though I'm not a fan of a powerstroke, Swellmel does have a pretty slick setup on his truck. I also know for a fact he gets his oil for free, so basically he is just out the cost of the kit + filters/time for filtering it. And getting it free, based on how many miles you drive, can pay for the cost of the kit pretty quickly.
Figure 50 gallons @ $2.50/gal is $125 saved, so a $2K kit would pay for itself in 800 gallons+/-. If you are getting 15 mpg average it would take you 12K miles to use that 800 gallons. Most of us drive out trucks more than 12K miles a year, so it would pay itself off in under a year. If you have a fleet of trucks or run equipment on WVO it would pay off even faster. Though most people couldn't get that many gallons for free unless they owned their own resturant chain LOL Though SwellMel has family in that business
This doesn't even figure in the fact that WVO is better for the enviroment, so thats more of a plus. Though, if I ever did this, I wouldn't use WVO, I would process it myself so that its actual biodiesel. IMO its better for your motor and you don't have to run 2 tanks. Eliminate the fats out of the WVO and you don't have waxing issues and it gels at a lower temp also.
Spectre32
Welding Extraordinaire!
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Ahh yes, its nice being able to swap diesel platforms and not get rapped for new systems. Plus if you talking to uneducated people they may shy away from your truck if you go to sell/trade it in.
JFlagg
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Very true... might discourage potential buyers if they don't understand the concept fully. Though, on the flip side, how many people that do these conversions plan on selling their vehicle anytime soon? I bet most plan on keeping them for quit awhile... So two different outlooks.
Spectre32
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Yeah there is allot of different ways you can do this. All I'm saying is that i would bet the ranch that if we had two trucks, one running Biodiesel and one running WVO that after some set amount of miles(like 100K) that you would be replacing more things in the WVO truck than the one running Biodiesel.
dieselsmoke0204
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Thank you for the info. Thats what I figured I would have to do if I were to switch to this system. I know swellmel gets really good fuel mileage off of the diesel, upwards of 100mpg. He doesnt keep track of what he gets off of WVO so I couldnt tell ya what the fuel mileage is there. Yet, its free so I see his point in not keeping track. I like this set up because it is automated so I have to do less work (haha I know, im lazy). Im definitely going to look into buying this system, hopefully soon. Thanks again for the info and if you have any insights or recommendations, feel free to throw them my way. I could always use them.
I agree, though I'm not a fan of a powerstroke, Swellmel does have a pretty slick setup on his truck. I also know for a fact he gets his oil for free, so basically he is just out the cost of the kit + filters/time for filtering it. And getting it free, based on how many miles you drive, can pay for the cost of the kit pretty quickly.
Figure 50 gallons @ $2.50/gal is $125 saved, so a $2K kit would pay for itself in 800 gallons+/-. If you are getting 15 mpg average it would take you 12K miles to use that 800 gallons. Most of us drive out trucks more than 12K miles a year, so it would pay itself off in under a year. If you have a fleet of trucks or run equipment on WVO it would pay off even faster. Though most people couldn't get that many gallons for free unless they owned their own resturant chain LOL Though SwellMel has family in that business
This doesn't even figure in the fact that WVO is better for the enviroment, so thats more of a plus. Though, if I ever did this, I wouldn't use WVO, I would process it myself so that its actual biodiesel. IMO its better for your motor and you don't have to run 2 tanks. Eliminate the fats out of the WVO and you don't have waxing issues and it gels at a lower temp also.
I definitely understand this system will save a lot of money from not having to pay at the pump. That is one main reason why I want it. Now, I dont know too much about bio. Im not chemist in any regard, so I dont really trust me making my own fuel. Except for just filtering vegetable oil, if I were to produce bio, im pretty sure I would screw something up and it would be a costly fix. Now, I see you are located in St. Louis. If you do decide to start producing bio, I might be willing to just purchase some from you if possible. I need to do some more homework on how the whole set up works for using bio. Ive heard mixed reviews about it. The vegistroke kit, yet expensive, is very easy to use and from what I understand, not much maintenance. Thats one big reason Im a fan of it.
There are a few members on powerstroke.org who are approaching very high miles on WVO only with little to no issues.
I guess I dont see how on one hand you can say WVO will be destructive, yet you know it's very lubricative. I agree the viscosity may never be the same, but it seems the lubrication properties of WVO vs. #2 negate whatever harm it may cause!?
It seems most damage occurs from running non heated WVO (or less viscous if that's how you want to look at it). It's all in how it's burnt. You can do this test at home with a frying pan. You can see the difference in how it burns between unheated WVO and heated WVO. Unheated will smoke and sizzle and cause a huge smoky mess. Heated oil will burn nice and smooth.
Again, a lot of it comes down to how the fuel (WVO in this case) is obtained, filtered, and used.
You are 100% correct with the advantages of bio vs. WVO though when using more than one vehicle. More times than not, it makes more sense to use bio when you're running more than one vehicle. WVO is a great option for someone running one or two trucks though.
We did a trip this past summer in my buddies 04 F250 running the vegistroke. We left upstate NY and headed west to Wisconsin, went four hours north in WI to pick up a trailer, then towed it all the way back to NY and used less than half a tank of diesel. We had the entire bed of the truck filled with filtered WVO in cubies, plus the full 51 gallon tank, plus some of the back of a budget truck filled with extra oil just in case. It was truly awesome.
Spectre32
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Its lubrication properties do not negate all damage. Injector parts are designed to operate under certain conditions. These conditions are dictated by the chemical properties of diesel fuel. When you run WVO through them you would be inducing more wear to said parts, given the change in fluid properties. Just cause its lubrication properties are far better does not mean less of a chance of premature wear to various injector parts. Density and Viscosity are closely related.
I am well aware of the people on powerstroke that pimp the viggiestroke system. I'm sure if you have spent any time in there you will see that the Chenry guy is massively into it. If you dig deep enough you maybe be able to see how he fried all 8 of his injectors because he got oil that had some sort of chemical in it. I can say I will never have that issue as my oil is chemically treated. WVO will work and you can probably live happily on it but It personally does not fit my needs.
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JFlagg
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At one time I was ready to pull the plug on getting(or making)a setup to make my own bio from WVO. But that was back when my Dodge was the only truck I had and I drove it everyday. Now, since I got my Ranger, I don't drive it much, so the need for alot of cheap fuel isn't needed. Not to mention, until I move, I don't have near the room to set up anything like that
If you are interested in just purchasing pre-made bio from someone that does it themselves, I have the number of a guy down in Barnhart that does this on a massive scale and sells it alot cheaper than #2. thing is, you bring in your own WVO and he sells you bio on a 1 for 1 basis. You need 30 gallons of bio, bring him 30 gallons of WVO. Its a good method for those that don't have the room, money or time to do it themselves... just have to find your own oil.
DevilDocTater
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no kidding??? Im down here in festus, i hvae only ran bio a few times in my truck when i had to fill up in IL, i think it was B10??
Yes he did, and so have others. Fryer cleaner was the culprit. However, testing for chemicals like this in WVO is relatively easy and inexpensive. It can be as simple as putting the oil and water into a bottle, shaking it up, letting the water separate, and then testing the ph of the water that settles out. IIRC, Clay (CHenry) was still learning the in's and out's of WVO and didn't know about this test. And since then, he hasn't had any injector issues.
I won't argue that biodiesel is a great alternative to regular diesel and its obvious that you've done a lot of homework on both bio and WVO.
For me, it came down to a couple of things when I made my choice:
1) Prepping WVO for direct use is much easier than making biodiesel
2) Running straight veggie oil means I don't have methanol or lye in my garage. I also don't have to wash my oil and figure out what to do with the leftovers.
3) I have to pay for my veggie oil, and the price of making it into biodiesel put the price per gallon at close to what diesel currently is. Unless I'm running it for only the green effect, there isn't a benefit for me
4) B100 will gel in cold temperatures and if you don't have a heated tank (or a heated pickup tube), you're going to have some challenges
5) I've spoken to a lot of people running WVO in a number of different types of vehicles and engines. The folks I chose to ask questions of all had close to 100k miles on oil or more
IMO, a properly designed veggie oil system using well prepped WVO is as safe for your engine as biodiesel.
--Snake
Santa Gertrudis
6.4LTTFMF
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I have never messed with Bio in my truck. It's too damn hard to get ahold of for me. I have a Shell station right down the road with the fuel my truck has ran fine on for 122k. I would have to drive 30 miles to fill up just to say I run Bio, and lose some MPG. No thanks.