Cylinder Press. vs. Injection Press.

Mudn_1

Sweet Home
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First of this may be a really stupid question! but here goes:

Does Cylinder Pressure at higher rpm's (Heat), Indirectly or directly affect the pressure at which fuel is injected?

It seems to me that when you have high cylinder pressures, compression would try to enter the Injector Nozzle and affect spray pattern, pressure, atomization, and Injection pulse width?

Discuss:
 
the injection pressure is way higher than what the cylinder pressures are so you will not have compression trying to enter the injector nozzle and when it does open the fuel is being injected at a much higher pressure and will not be affected by cylinder pressure.
 
First of this may be a really stupid question! but here goes:

Does Cylinder Pressure at higher rpm's (Heat), Indirectly or directly affect the pressure at which fuel is injected?

It seems to me that when you have high cylinder pressures, compression would try to enter the Injector Nozzle and affect spray pattern, pressure, atomization, and Injection pulse width?

Discuss:

I can understand your theroy u would think it would actually blow the spray back up towards the head.... But I would think that the IP pressure would overcome the CP and thus letting it get to the the bowl.

Great question!
Brandon
 
So the question is: does it affect it at all, or are injectors set up for the higher pressures or higher rpm's?
 
I believe that overall the Injection pressure would overcome, but how do you figure cylinder pressure at say 3200 rpm, with x amount of timing, X amount of fuel, and x amount of air= highest possible Cylinder Pressure for that application? VS. a standard pop off pressure
 
Seems to me the only variables on cylinder pressure is gonna be boost and timing.Although more rpm's usually means more boost and more timing(electronic 5.9's),rpm's themselve have no direct affect.
 
Rpm's do effect swirl and turbulence in the combustion bowl. As well does charge density.

Effects spray pattern, atomization, yes.
 
Rpm's do effect swirl and turbulence in the combustion bowl. As well does charge density.

Effects spray pattern, atomization, yes.

That's what I mean, but how does it affect the pattern, atomization, etc.? does it have a negative or possitive affect on combustion?
 
Seems to me the only variables on cylinder pressure is gonna be boost and timing.Although more rpm's usually means more boost and more timing(electronic 5.9's),rpm's themselve have no direct affect.

I believe rpm's do have direct affect, more rpms= more heat=more pressure
 
I doubt it's an issue - typical peak cylinder pressure for OEM IC engines is in the 1K-1300psi range... high performance engines are ~ 1200-1500psi, with max effort mills reaching 1800psi.

Except for the purely mechanical IPs, injection pressures from electronically-controlled pumps are at least an order of magnitude higher.
 
that is the reason to look at cylinder pressure every durring the combustion cycle, and the pressures are higher then that on the spike.
some of the cylinder pressure systems I have been involved with look at pressure every 1/10 or a degree
 
Combustion pressure is dwarfed by injection pressure, and IMO the correlation of injection pressure to combusiton pressure is not much of a issue when there is such a spread.

However rpm - combustion bowl, swirl and turbulance is related for sure. A nozzle with small holes, in a high rpm and high turbulance combustion chamber can be over powered and result is a worse burn, than a nozzle with larger holes and tighter spray mass that penatrates farther through the air mass.
 
Combustion pressure is dwarfed by injection pressure, and IMO the correlation of injection pressure to combusiton pressure is not much of a issue when there is such a spread.

However rpm - combustion bowl, swirl and turbulance is related for sure. A nozzle with small holes, in a high rpm and high turbulance combustion chamber can be over powered and result is a worse burn, than a nozzle with larger holes and tighter spray mass that penatrates farther through the air mass.

Example please?
 
another thought. the more timing you run, the less the cylinder pressure when the fuel is injected.
 
Example please?

Smokem posted a link in another one of your threads to an article that thoroughly explained the relationship between air density in the combustion chamber and injection quality.

The research group tested the distance of maximum atomization. What i gathered is that there is a certain distance where the spray pattern reaches maximum atomization/mixes with the swirling air charge. At distances farther from the nozzle than this ideal distance, the fuel mist starts to reform into larger slow moving droplets. The ideal balance for efficiency was to have this ideal distance occur at the outer edges of the bowl.

The trick to atomization was that as air density increased, the distance for ideal atomization shortened.

For example, a nozzle designed to spray to the outer edges of combustion bowl at high load/high air charge density will spray too far at low engine load and result in fuel making it to the piston surface and therefore become wasted.

As I recall, the research paper discussed 4 ways to make the spray penetrate farther into the swirl of compressed air.
1. Larger hole
2. Higher injection pressure
3. Tapering the nozzle holes to resemble a funnel or cone with the larger end towards the inside of the injector and smaller end towards the combustion chamber.
4. Lengthening the holes of the nozzle.


Obviously #2 is why common rail systems that ramp up pressure have an edge on traditional injection systems. Nozzles can be designed to deliver fuel the outer edges of the bowl at all engine load/ charge density conditions.

Think about a 12 valve with a shower head nozzle. It dumps a ton of fuel that only cleans up at 120 psi boost when the charge air density is extremely high. That same injector at idle is smokey because the fuel spray is too large and it "washes down the cylinder" or hits the piston face before it can combine with air and burn.
 
another thought. the more timing you run, the less the cylinder pressure when the fuel is injected.

I was thinking the same thing! The cylinder pressure is rising while the piston approaches tdc obviosly. In common 12v apps when does the combustion begin? At BTDC or ATDC and how many degrees? Just a general range is what i'm interested in.
 
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