Extrude Hone vs. EDM

Smokem said:
The internal passages of the injector go rather untouched due to the lack of velocity in the larger volume areas.



This is not uncommon with a large increase, however it has never been proven to be a disadvantage. It is most likely accountable due to the difference in the heat treatment throughout the nozzle itself. Basically described to me to be comparable to the waving effect water has on rock faces on a river bed.
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If it is cause from uneven heat treat, then you can have a similar issue with the honing fluid on different sides of the holes, and possibly even from hole to hole. Taking a nozzle up just a little in size the inconsistency will be small, but if your doubling the size of a nozzle, an area that has softer heat treat, will be washed out more. Hence why I like to EDM for a large injector followed up by EH. But what do I know I was just a dumb old boy raised on a farm.
 
zstroken said:
Hence why I like to EDM for a large injector followed up by EH.
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That is a better option, and the path I will use. It is hard to say how much waving there is in the orifice, shadowing may also lead to seeing more than there actually is. Excessive radiusing of the inlet is not always a good idea, otherwise some wouldn't have spent a year trying to determine a way to minimize it.
 
mondtster said:
Not being very familiar with the EH process, this is one question/concern I've always had about it.

Anybody have any links to some detailed information on how the EH process is done? I know the basics of it but no more than that.



This is one of many questions I've had about the process. My best guess based on the information I've read is that there must be ways to control it. I wonder what the tooling looks like for this kind of job?
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Diesel Fuel Systems - Extrude Hone
 
mondtster said:
Not being very familiar with the EH process, this is one question/concern I've always had about it.

Anybody have any links to some detailed information on how the EH process is done? I know the basics of it but no more than that.



This is one of many questions I've had about the process. My best guess based on the information I've read is that there must be ways to control it. I wonder what the tooling looks like for this kind of job?
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With the EDM process you can burn the holes in the injector using electrical current and an electrode , but your limited to the size electrode stock you can get and the amount of over burn created. The smaller the hole the harder it is to control. The process is pretty accurate depending on the person doing them. I had Jon at J & L burn a .0015 out of the holes for me before. That was pretty impressive.

The EH process is basically pushing a grity sludge type solution through the injector which polishes up the roughness of the EDM hole and can be used to take minute amounts out of the injector to achieve balancing them.
 
I think everyone is misreading what I said. I know what both processes are and how it works, I am not however familiar with the fine details of the EH process to make an informed decision on what it is capable of doing or not doing in this application.

I suspect its limitations are based on tooling and possibly operator experience.
 
How I feel about EH is that is is great if you want to polish the injectors or balance them out fine tune if you will. But it you try to remove to much you are going to wash away the crispness of the detail in the injector and the sealing areas that you need .
 
Toolman said:
How I feel about EH is that is is great if you want to polish the injectors or balance them out fine tune if you will. But it you try to remove to much you are going to wash away the crispness of the detail in the injector and the sealing areas that you need .
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How is the EH material forced into the nozzle? Unless I'm mistaken, on the sac type nozzles the holes are not in the pintle's sealing surface. Would it be possible to insert a tube into the nozzle that would seat on the pintle sealing surface and inject the EH material that way? I'd think that the pintle sealing area could be saved in that application if this type of operation were possible.
 
mondtster said:
How is the EH material forced into the nozzle? Unless I'm mistaken, on the sac type nozzles the holes are not in the pintle's sealing surface. Would it be possible to insert a tube into the nozzle that would seat on the pintle sealing surface and inject the EH material that way? I'd think that the pintle sealing area could be saved in that application if this type of operation were possible.
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Sounds good to me but I would think that however you do it you would still have to push it through the seat area to some extent and if you had to remove much material it would violate the sealing surfaces.
 
Maybe I should post this again.

Smokem said:
As far as washing out the pintle seating area, it is much more likely caused by too heavy of a radius on the inlet.
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Smokem said:
Excessive radiusing of the inlet is not always a good idea, otherwise some wouldn't have spent a year trying to determine a way to minimize it.
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It can be controlled, but that is something that will not be explained. Heavy radiusing on the inlet can raise the flow coefficient for a nozzle even if the same hone size, but what is the benefit if the atomization is lost?
 
I first had Jim EH a set of 7 holers for me about 4 or so years ago. He did them "20% over stock" for me. They ran well, and were very well balanced as all the EH nozzles I've worked with have been.

I then ran a set of EDM nozzles that were 7 holes by ~0.011 to ~0.012" or so. They were CRIIIIIIIIIIIIISP compared to the EH nozzles that were probably only 0.007" or so. It actually ran cleaner power per power. Some of this was due to them being able to inject the needed fuel quantity quicker though.

So I then sent the same nozzle out to Jim and had him go 100% over on them. They got smoky on me, and the crispness was gone again. I had to add timing back in to get them "crisp" again. They felt doggy. They did pick up ~20 to 30cc per 1000 though, and because of this power went up ~60hp or so.

I'm still running them right now, but the EDM nozzles were the best I've ever run in terms of efficiency. Most power per smoke, most eager to rev engine. They simply atomized the fuel better. Better than the original EH nozzles that were close to half the size.

I'm going to try a set of 7 x ~14 or so thou EDM's next. Although I've already been told that they run far cleaner than the EH nozzle I'm running now on a truck that already went from the nozzle I'm running to the larger EDM. The kicker is that the EDM flows the same amount of fuel per time all else constant, yet makes less smoke.

Only way I can account for that is that the fuel is simply burning more efficiently. Can't see how that wouldn't make more power as well.



Anybody else have much EH to EDM back to EH back to EDM comparisons that are similar or dissimilar?

I'm sold on EDM myself. As long as the tips don't start lodging themselves in piston faces like the old days I'm good....

:hehe:
 
I've seen EDM and EH both ways, good and bad. I think it has more to do with the setup of the injector, than the process used to enlarge the hone size.
 
Smokem said:
I've seen EDM and EH both ways, good and bad. I think it has more to do with the setup of the injector, than the process used to enlarge the hone size.
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I'm talking about not changing anything but nozzle type. In most cases the flow rates were nearly identical, yet the performance and eagerness of the engine to rev with the EDM nozzles is out of this world better.

IME it's always been the same over and over. For any given flow rate the EH is smokier and doggier. The more the EH "percentage over" the worse and worse this disparity gets.

Is the hole "too clean"???

Hole needs a little "roughing up" to help with atomization?

I have yet to conclude on what's causing this.
 
On a mechanical injector, it is obvious on a pop-tester. The nozzle with heavier honing, especially on the inlet, does not fire near as cleanly as an EDM nozzle. If you can control the radiusing of the inlet, you can limit the amount of dead feel during actuation.
 
Smokem said:
On a mechanical injector, it is obvious on a pop-tester. The nozzle with heavier honing, especially on the inlet, does not fire near as cleanly as an EDM nozzle. If you can control the radiusing of the inlet, you can limit the amount of dead feel during actuation.
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So with a EH tip the fuel somewhat "rolls"/"falls" out and with a EDM it will come out "straight and true"(sharp)

(does that make sence?)
 
If the EH does much radiusing on the edge of the hole or especially the seat, the pintle will not have to be raised very far for injection to begin. A low pressure unatomized dribble, is about what it amounts to, on a mechanical injector.
 
Toolman said:
I think what he means is EDM is a good way to get the hole close to size and use the Extrude to finish it off and polish it up. What I have always been afraid of with the extrude hone injectors (mainly in the CR'S) was that if you extrude it too much it would wash out the pintal seat and you would have leaky injectors that would eventually fail because of the high pressures.
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Yip...! I agree
 
well I first like my EH's, they seemed fairly clean and ran pretty well! the truck had a bad lope (hrvp) and started getting pretty dirty after a while, these EH made descent powa (485) for 150's! these were over a set of jammer 2's which anything is probably better quality! so I pulled them and 2 were pissing and they were all around 260-270bar:bang, and the rest....well somewhere around 5-6 six of the holes were actually firing! so i sent them off and had them flowed, and they were all out of wack, anywhere from right around stock to roughly 20% over! looked like some of the holes were clogged up with material from the honing process! so we threw them in the trash and.....

about 2 months later weston built me a set of 7x010's with .015" lift and .015" stroke, and holy **** are these things crisp, clean, and damn if they ain't making some power! the truck idles smooth, and only a slight haze at startup for about 5min, spools around 200rpm sooner, hits a hell of a lot harder and is just all around easier to drive on the street! my 24v got quiet too! honestly, I don't know if I will ever buy an EH again, but timbeaux's truck sure is running good so i dunno! I want to dyno see apples to apples (7x.010" vs EH 150) or just go to the track! oh yeah, egts seem the same and boost is up a little!
 
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