Filling in fire rings?

yoshi470

yoshi470

EDP Janitor
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
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Ok long story short. Took my head to a local machine shop in my area and asked for o-rings and when i picked the head up it had fire rings in it instead. I knew i didnt want fire rings but whatever no big deal. Now the truck is being put back to a lower power level where fire rings are not needed and i dont want to have to worry about them cracking and breaking after several heat cycles..etc. My question is, is it possible to weld back in the groove where the fire ring is cut and then get the head decked flat again??
 
I think you asked this before. I think it would be cheaper to just get another head.
 
I am pretty sure you could trade someone for a stock head. And get some $$$. Just my two pennies.
 
zstroken said:
I think you asked this before. I think it would be cheaper to just get another head.
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Yea i asked in another thread and didnt get much of a response. I would sell and get another head but this head just had all new guides/seats/valves put in and is virtually brand new so thats the reason for wanting to keep it.
 
What about the block? Pretty much stuck with decking it I imagine? How deep are the grooves?
 
Hmmm! Here is where it's confusing to me,...

I have an Fire-ringed head. It's a Haisley and time will tell if it was a mistake or not. In the latest Diesel Power there is a built up truck by (I believe was Haisley) and it was a CR engine. It was done with Fire rings. A lot of $$$ was spent on that truck and it's hard to believe that a sub standard process what have been chosen by Haisley when they obviously had other options for this build.

What's confusing to me is that my Fire Rings are on a smaller circumference than the O-ring process for one thing. Also it does NOT groove the block,... I was told that is the O-ring process and because my engine was still in the truck and hard to get to the rear cylinder we opted for the Fire Ring.

Personally, like with most things there are good and bad with each. When you get right down to it if we didn't want 700hp and up then we woudldn't have to deal with this,..... but we did and so we live with that decision and try to make our trucks as fail safe as possible.

If you trusted your installer to do the work to begin with then I'd go with it at this point and just retorq at least every six months (depending on the miles you are putting on it), and if it goes bad then you can do as Wade suggested and either back the power way down and go with a stock setup or have the block decked and cut new O-ring grooves in the block and head. I've heard the old 12 V gasket works best with that but don't know first hand.

No matter which way you go,... good luck and it's unfortunate that your shop didn't do what you asked to begin with. Not good.
 
Pat that is backwards. O-Ring is head only, with using ss wire. Fire Ring is a definate ring that has grooves in both the head and block. Which is what is done with my engine. Which in my mind is not needed, but I am probably going to have to live with it.
 
My engine is o-ringed. There is a groove in both the block and the head with inconel wire in both.
 
Why did you do that Lee? Are they designed to sandwich the Head Gasket?
 
Yes, that's the idea. Think of it this way, on a standard head gasket the cylinder pressure can escape in a straight line between the head and the gasket or between the block and the gasket. By only o-ringing the head more pressure is applied to the fire ring area of the head gasket which is an excellent idea. By o-ringing the head and the block cylinder pressure must now travel around the edge of the wire to escape. I realize it's round wire but in essence there are 4 angles on both sides of the fire ring that the pressure must pass to escape the cylinder chamber plus extra clapping force created by the wire protrusion. Also a stock 12v or modified stock 12v Cummins head gasket can be used depending on the block/head combo used in the build.
 
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Sounds like we have some terminalogy issues where different shops, customers and machinists are using "Fire Rings" and "O-Rings" interchangably...

Wow, Lee you just illustrated my point exactly by calling them both o-rings and fire rings in the same sentences...

Yes, that's the idea. Think of it this way, on a standard head gasket the cylinder pressure can escape in a straight line between the head and the gasket or between the block and the gasket. By only o-ringing the head more pressure is applied to the fire ring area of the head gasket which is an excellent idea. By o-ringing the head and the block cylinder pressure must now travel around the edge of the wire to escape...in essence there are 4 angles on both sides of the fire ring that the pressure must pass to escape the cylinder chamber.
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I think the way you presented it as o-ringing the head and/or o-ringing the block is a great explanation though... Better to describe which one or both that are o-ringed than to just ASSUME that o-ring means only one and fire-ring means both or viceaversa...

my 2 cents...
 
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Just a note i only have fire rings in the head not the block for some of you that may be getting confused.
 
yoshi470 said:
Just a note i only have fire rings in the head not the block for some of you that may be getting confused.
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I would sell the head and buy another. I'd think someone will be looking for a good head for a high performance build and may even have a good head to exchange.
 
Chris Tobin said:
Sounds like we have some terminalogy issues where different shops, customers and machinists are using "Fire Rings" and "O-Rings" interchangably...

Wow, Lee you just illustrated my point exactly by calling them both o-rings and fire rings in the same sentences...



I think the way you presented it as o-ringing the head and/or o-ringing the block is a great explanation though... Better to describe which one or both that are o-ringed than to just ASSUME that o-ring means only one and fire-ring means both or viceaversa...

my 2 cents...
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Every head gasket has a fire ring in it, otherwise there would be nothing to seal cylinder pressure. "O-rings" apply extra sealing force to the fire rings on a stock head gasket. "Fire Rings" replace the fire ring in the head gasket requiring a totally custom head gasket setup. "O-rings" fit tight in the receiver groove, "fire rings" do not.
 
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From my understanding a o-ring, can either be on the head or block or both, that press into a gasket that already has a fire ring. Formed from solid wire that is butted up together, and seated in place. More or less adds crush to the already gasket placed fire ring.

A fire ring is exactly that, a stand alone ring that seals only the combustion pressure that is a pre-formed circle, and the gasket is cut out for them. The head could be cut for it, or the block or both.

The head could be welded and cut again, but thats the HARD road.
 
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LReiff said:
Every head gasket has a fire ring in it, otherwise there would be nothing to seal cylinder pressure. "O-rings" apply extra sealing force to the fire rings on a stock head gasket. "Fire Rings" replace the fire ring in the head gasket requiring a totally custom head gasket setup. "O-rings" fit tight in the receiver groove, "fire rings" do not.
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This is correct.

yoshi470 said:
Why is it so hard to reweld and resurface?
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Its not, just extra time. I've done plenty of small weld repairs to these heads and resurfaced them, no big deal, there is a lot of material that can be removed from these heads. It should be tig welded though, stick, mig or gas will make a mess of your head in a hurry.
 
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