Fueling an HE351 turbo on a 12 valve (Kind of long)

TheSh111t

TheSh111t

That one guy
Joined
Sep 30, 2008
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Hello everyone. I'n new to posting here but I read up almost everyday. I have a few question regarding the pickup I'm building. The specs are in my Sig.
I originally planned on compound turboing the truck, but long story short I traded off many of those parts for things I actually needed just to get the truck on the road. Ok, so my plan is a fun peppy street truck that gets half decent milage, doesn't smoke out the entire block and wont have unmanagable EGTs. Since I had planned on compound turbos, fueling selection as a little bigger then I would have gone then if I knew I would be just running a single, but I have it now and I need to see if It'll work, or if changes will need to be made before I get the truck on the road.
I am running an HE351 turbo off of a 2006 Cummins. I hear conflicting ideas about if this flows as well as an HX40 or not. I have pieced together that the compressor flows near as well as an HX40 but the exhaust housing being 9cm tends to be on the restrictive side, but since it is undivided it's not as bad as many people thing. OK, so my question is this: since I'm looking for decent power without a TON of smoke or high EGTs, will this turbo be able to clean up the 5x12 injectors, fed by 181 delivery valves and a #5plate? The truck is not finished yet so AFC tuning has yet to be done, but I'll tune if to the best of my ability to eliminate some of the bottom end smoke. I'm just worried that since I am not going to be running the HX35/40 hybrid on top of the HT60 like I origenally planned, I may have too much fuel for my needs.
I know lots of guys don't mind the huge plumes of smoke, and some even encourage it, but I'm not one of those guys. I understand that it's a diesel, so some smoke is unavoidable and I'm fine with that, but am I going to be in trouble? Am I asking too much of the little HE351?
I know that the HE351 is a late model turbo, so this may be in the wrong forum, but it is 12 valve related so I figure if anyone would know about installing one on my truck it would be you guys.
I have seen that some of the 3gen guys have made well over 500 horsepower of this turbo (Although with sky rocket EGTs) but I actually have no idea how much hosepower I'll be making with this setup. My best guess is in the 325-350 range (Flywheel horsepower) am I even in the ball park? Maybe I'm a little optamistic. Someone please help. ANY input, good or bad, will be greatly appreciated.
 
Thank you Stevewes. I came across that post in my searches a couple weeks ago. He made good power (Way more then I'm looking for), but he is running an external wastegate. He does have larger injectors then I do and no fuel plate which can make for high EGTs but even with his external wastegate he has high EGTs. His dyno numbers suprised me to be honest, but then again he it running bigger injectors then I have and he is running without a plate (Bet it smokes a bit). I would be perfectly happy with 350 horsepower and EGTs that wont kill the engine in a matter of weeks. Thanks again for the info. Anyone else have any input?
 
For 350hp I think you will be fine. I put down 337hp on the stock charger. EGT's were fine for towing and driving around. They would get to 1500* pretty quick at WOT, but it wont hurt anything to keep them there until you are done racing or messing around. Im sure the 351 is better at keeping it cool than the HX35, so i feel like it will be fine for you.

Eric
 
I would also not discount the usability of the stock delivery valves! It's worth the swap to gain some performance knowledge with that specific setup
 
Hurley said:
I would also not discount the usability of the stock delivery valves! It's worth the swap to gain some performance knowledge with that specific setup
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Well I have heard that with a 160 pumped engine sometimes you get a wierd stumble at around 1200-1400 RPM if you have installed bigger injectors. Not totally sure that it is true, but I have heard from 2 differant people and 1 diesel shop, when I went aroun dasking about it. I upgraded to the 181 delivery valves because I wanted to eleiminate the possibility of the stumble and to pick up a couple horsepower withough going with a set of smokey full cut delivery valves or anything like that. Any suggestions? Has anyone else heard of the posible problems on a 160 engine with bigger injectors?
 
Leave the 181's in. When i swapped from 131's to 181's in my 160 pump'd truck, it was exactly 1/2 second faster than with the 131's through the 1/4 with everything else the same. I also noticed no extra smoke or EGT's with that setup.
 
Cummins Driver said:
Leave the 181's in. When i swapped from 131's to 181's in my 160 pump'd truck, it was exactly 1/2 second faster than with the 131's through the 1/4 with everything else the same. I also noticed no extra smoke or EGT's with that setup.
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Lots of people seem to have similar experiances with the 181 delivery valves. Most seem to pick up a little power and not notice any additional smoke or high EGT. Kind of a win win in my book. How do you like the 191 delivery valves vs the 181's? I had a chance to get a set of 191's from a buddy, but turned him down because I was trying to keep the build mild, I ended up paying more for a set of 181's then he wanted for his 191's.
 
My 95 has the stumble you speak of with my current DDP 1's. My buddies 94 wigged out when we installed a set of DDP 2's in it, but is fine running a set of New Era 370's currently. Both trucks are auto's, 131 dv's.

I know that DDP cranks the pop pressures up, maybe New Era's are set lower and don't cause the stumble? I know my 97 5 spd would run on anything I put in it, never stumbled or anything.
 
I have a friend in the custom fabrications class making me a mandrel bend turbo to intercooler tube, as well as a free flow intake horn. I hope that brings back the mileage and will let air into the engine sooner, allowing me to build more manifold pressure before the drive pressure gets too high. On average, 2 psi is lost across the stock intercooler, and I think I am losing about 4-5 more in my non-mandrel bend intercooler pipe. I made 407 hp on the HX35, 447 hp on the HE351.
 
loganp said:
I have a friend in the custom fabrications class making me a mandrel bend turbo to intercooler tube, as well as a free flow intake horn. I hope that brings back the mileage and will let air into the engine sooner, allowing me to build more manifold pressure before the drive pressure gets too high. On average, 2 psi is lost across the stock intercooler, and I think I am losing about 4-5 more in my non-mandrel bend intercooler pipe. I made 407 hp on the HX35, 447 hp on the HE351.
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40 horsepower increase just with the install of the HE351? Thats great. I wouldn't expect such an increase. Were the spool up times with the HX35 and the HE351 about the same? Faster slower? I know the compressor is larger on the HE351 which can lead to a slower spool up time, but with the 9cm exhaust housing I wonder if it makes up for the differance. Did you make any other changes other then the HE351 swap when you picked up the 40 horsepower? How much boost did you run with that setup? Mandral bends are the way to go, I'll be fabricating my entire piping system out of mandral bends since none of the stock Dodge stuff will work on my build. I hope to make it as free flowing as possible. Thanks for the info, I hope my swap goes as well as yours. I was shooting for a CLEAN 350 horsepower. Once the truck is finished I'll have to get it to the dyno and see what kind of numbers it will really put down, because I have not been able to get any sort of estimate on power output from anyone. I'm just hoping my clutch will hold. Since I could not get any power estimates I had to buy a clutch that I GUESSED would work. It's supposed to be good for just over 900 foot pounds, but then again I have a light pickup truck (1981 Chevy shirt bed) and it's 2 wheel drive so I can't do anything crazy like boosted 4wd launches. I'm hoping that the tires will slip long before the clutch ever will. Looking at my signature, do you have any sort of horsepower estimate? I would like something in the ball park, just so I'm not completely caught off guard when ever I do make it to a dyno. I know that the dyno can be a humbeling experiance sometimes.
 
Cummins Driver said:
Id say your looking at around 350-370hp as a rough guess.
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Thank you. That would be in the ball park I'm looking for. I just hope I can make decent power without too much smoke. I guess I'll have to deal with whatever smoke it does make, until I have the money to build a twins setup. I can't wait to get this thing on the road so I'll be able to tune the AFC, to see where I really am. Thanks again.
 
350hp is definitely in reach. With the added mass, it takes a hair longer to start to spool but when it gets going it hits harder. All I changed was the turbo and waste gate and then tuned the AFC to match the turbo. I'm at about 35 psi manifold pressure, pressure at the turbo outlet is certainly higher given the intercooler pipe I'm running right now. I hope I will be able to get more out of it for the same amount of drive pressure when I get that issue straightened out.
 
Several people have tested the HE351's and they continue to make more power as you push them higher boost pressures. Believe it or not, they make more power at 50 psi than they do at 45 psi.

At 35psi, I think you are leaving a bunch of HP on the table at the benefit of better turbo longevity.

My HE351 hit 42 psi at the map sensor on the dyno when I made 499.2 to the rear wheels.
 
My buddy has a 95 5-speed with a 175 pump and he has that 1200-1400 stumble. It was real bad with some bullydog 80hp injectors. He now has 370marines and its alot better now but not totally gone.
 
Big Blue24 said:
Several people have tested the HE351's and they continue to make more power as you push them higher boost pressures. Believe it or not, they make more power at 50 psi than they do at 45 psi.

At 35psi, I think you are leaving a bunch of HP on the table at the benefit of better turbo longevity.

My HE351 hit 42 psi at the map sensor on the dyno when I made 499.2 to the rear wheels.
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Thats crazy. I didn't know people were pushing these things so hard. I am not shooting for 500 horsepower, but it's kind of cool knowing that I was willing to push it, it may be possible. I just need to get this thing running and see where I'm at. The longer it sits here the more crap I want to add to it. I need to get it running before it turnes into some 700 horsepower, turbo lagging, black smoke breathing dragon :evil
 
Big Blue24 said:
Several people have tested the HE351's and they continue to make more power as you push them higher boost pressures. Believe it or not, they make more power at 50 psi than they do at 45 psi.

At 35psi, I think you are leaving a bunch of HP on the table at the benefit of better turbo longevity.
Click to expand...

Any numbers on drive pressures? At 40 psi boost with WOT I'm past 60 psi drive pressure.
 
Really? 60 PSI drive pressure? Isn't it true that the closer you are to 1:1 ratio (Bost to drive pressure ratio) the better off you are? I have also heard that high drive pressures can attribute to head gasket problems. Not knocking you for doing it, just trying to get an understanding. I will be running a set up kind of like yours, and I would like to know the things to look out for.
 
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