Hone pattern, rockwell hardness, ring tension

I used to do tech inspecting for ASA and other traveling late models. Paul Menards car had this pattern in the cylinder at the Milwaukee mile. That was the first time we had seen that.

I do our motors and a few friends for IMCA mods, but unless the track is very heavy the crate motors have been pretty awesome. They can almost keep the throttle matted the entire time, especially on dry slick tracks. Whereas we have trouble hitting half throttle without blowing the tires off, unless the conditions are very tacky.
 
Here is what one guy has to say about "laser honing", since you guys love articles copy and pasted so much..........lol.

Laser Structuring
A number of years ago, Gehring developed a unique process called "laser structuring" to enhance engine durability. The process uses a laser to burn small pits into areas of the cylinder bore surface where ring loading and wear are highest. The pits improve oil retention and ring lubrication, and significantly reduces ring and bore wear.

Riley says the new laser structuring process is now being used in Europe on diesel engines. "At 150,000 kilometers, the bores are showing almost no measurable wear (only 1 to 2 microns) and the emissions performance is the same as new," he says.

Riley says the laser structuring process can be used to create almost any kind of pattern imaginable in the bore surface. Typically, a series of dots or dashes 25 to 60 microns deep and 40 microns wide are burned into the top third of the cylinder by the laser after the bore has been semi-finished. A final honing step is then done using fine stones to remove any buildup of material around the pits and to finish the bore.

The laser part of the process takes about 9 to 15 seconds per cylinder and uses a special machine that rotates and lowers the laser beam as it is projected onto the surface of each cylinder.

Riley says the laser structuring process is ideal for hard blocks or those with special surface coatings that make them difficult to finish with conventional honing techniques. "It’s a perfect application for high performance, diesel and aircraft engines," he* says.
 
Here's another....

Racing has been the proving ground for technical developments in the automotive industry*since the early days of dirt tracks and race cars with mechanics on board. When a racing team, in any given racing season, suddenly pulls away from the pack, it's usually a sign that they're on to something new.

This happened just a year or so ago when laser honing*was "discovered" by racing teams on several of the major racing circuits. Engine performance and race results improved dramatically when the process was used to finish the cylinders of these high-performance engines.

"Laser honing of cylinders produces a superior surface match with piston rings that reduces friction blowby and wear," explains Olaf Tessarzyk, president and CEO, Gehring L.P., Farmington Hills, MI. "The laser honing process gave the racers who adopted it a big competitive edge."

Its potential for engines has not gone unnoticed by the Big Three automakers who are integrating the process into their transfer machining lines in the U.S. and Europe. Initially they have targeted diesel engines because of the ability of laser honing to dramatically reduce emissions.

Introduced in 1997 by Maschinenfabrik Gehring GmbH, Ostfildern, Germany, the laser honing process combines laser structuring with conventional honing to produce a microstructure*in the cylinder wall for both high bearing capacity and excellent gliding properties. It also produces an open structure to ensure lubricant*retention.

The microstructure comprises pockets (either spiral or cup structures) that are drilled into the cylinder wall by a laser beam. After laser machining, the cylinders are finish honed to remove the buildup*of any molten mass on each side of the groove. The new automotive production sequence is rough honing, semi-finish honing, laser structuring and finish honing.

The benefits of laser honing cylinders are dramatic, says Tessarzyk. "They include reduction of oil consumption, improvement of emissions, reduction of wear and a subsequent increase of service life, higher degree of efficiency and reduced friction losses resulting in lower fuel consumption."

The simple explanation is that the lubricant adheres better to a laser-honed surface for optimal tribological conditions for bearing and lubricating qualities. As a result, any stressed component that can benefit from a better design for lubrication*offers good potential. Typically, pieces like guide-ways, slide bushings, axial*face seals, control bushings, drawing tools or control pistons can benefit from laser honing by reducing wear from abrasion*and adhesion.

The wear rates of these components are determined by the complex interaction of many parameters. The factors include component load, kinetic conditions, relationship of hardness between the component materials, and topography of the interacting surfaces that are in relative motion. Bearings and gears are typical of such "stressed components."

Easy addition

Piston engines offer potential because of the desire to optimize fuel consumption and minimize emissions to the environment. In laser honing cylinders, only the top third of the cylinder has to be laser honed because that's the point of highest pressure, Tessarzyk points out, where a better surface match can do the most good.

Laser honing is an alternative to the universally used method of plateau honing. The limitation of plateau honing is that irregularities are caused by the variance of grain size and grain distribution in the honing stone. As a result, the match of cylinder and piston can only be so close.

For the automakers, adding the laser honing process to a transfer line is as easy as adding another station. The laser is located in a spindle*where rotary and stroke movements are NC controlled. The high-energy Nd-YAG beam is focused on the bore wall in a cylinder block where it strikes the surface of the workpiece*and is partially reflected and absorbed. As a result of the absorption of the beam energy, the material is heated up to the vapor phase.

The stock removal is determined by the parameters of pulse frequency, power, mode panel and feedrate--all of which are NC controlled. As a result of the steep temperature gradients and the high power density, the local and temporal action of the beam on the workpiece is extremely limited. The total temperature rise is insignificant. Adhering dirt and cooling lubricant residues vaporize*or burn and consequently have no influence on the quality of the machined surface.

The potential for the laser honing process extends well beyond diesel, gasoline and race car engines. Laser honing can be beneficial wherever two mechanical surfaces are in contact for critical bearings and gears, for example. "In applications where maintenance and safety are critical considerations such as aircraft gears and turbines, laser honing can have a dramatic impact," Tessarzyk concludes.
 
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Rock on boss. More to read! I used to do some garage work for a ASA team outta Hastings Minnesota. Its was pretty fun, drove 45 mins through a almost white-out condition in 4wheel to fit fenders lol.
 
All that to say laser machining is the synthetic oil of the machining arena.

-troll

From my Not-So-Smart phone
 
Brilliant......

All that to say laser machining is the synthetic oil of the machining arena.

-troll

From my Not-So-Smart phone[/QUOT

Yes, your absolutely correct......... Cuz synthetic oil will decide to stay in varying quantities, exactly where you decide you want it, and for varying amounts of time to a degree...........Genius........
I'm sorry to anyone who actually wants to learn about something they don't know, but I'm done with this thread ...... I suggest you keep listening to these 2 brilliant minds in this thread who know it all already. That way you can keep asking questions about things that are old news, such as laser treatments of cylinders.(which they knew nothing about and continue to doubt.....lol) Never mind that this treatment started in the late 1990's, like 97 or earlier and WILL be used more and more.
Here's a simple question........you'll probably get it wrong unless you've paid attention..

Is synthetic oil recommended in new engines that haven't been broken in on regular oil? Why?

Some can be, but why?
Now that you found out you have never heard of a technology that is over 15 years old and well documented, what do you think is cutting edge now? I have F1and Indy car gear sets, nascar cranks, rods and pistons, casidium coated lifters, etc. sitting on a shelf. Think any of them use technology you haven't heard of yet? One guy in this thread was on to something when he mentioned " coatings", but it's more than that. Go find the answer, or wait 15 years and MAYBE you'll hear about it. LMFAO

To the op, get ahold of me anytime. You come pick up or arrange the shipping and you can have either hardness tester. Merry Christmas.......If you want it shipped you pay crating and packing.

A couple people in this thread need to learn something I learned long ago....
I don't know everything......and you clearly know less. Good luck.
 
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Biggy, just think more in the scientific view point of engine building, we can manipulate an oil to make synthetic, we can stage attributes within a machine to perform tasks desired to a point within another machine. Any ways, back to reading.
 
All that to say laser machining is the synthetic oil of the machining arena.

-troll

From my Not-So-Smart phone[/QUOT

Yes, your absolutely correct......... Cuz synthetic oil will decide to stay in varying quantities, exactly where you decide you want it, and for varying amounts of time to a degree...........Genius........
I'm sorry to anyone who actually wants to learn about something they don't know, but I'm done with this thread ...... I suggest you keep listening to these 2 brilliant minds in this thread who know it all already. That way you can keep asking questions about things that are old news, such as laser treatments of cylinders.(which they knew nothing about and continue to doubt.....lol) Never mind that this treatment started in the late 1990's, like 97 or earlier and WILL be used more and more.
Here's a simple question........you'll probably get it wrong unless you've paid attention..

Is synthetic oil recommended in new engines that haven't been broken in on regular oil? Why?

Some can be, but why?
Now that you found out you have never heard of a technology that is over 15 years old and well documented, what do you think is cutting edge now? I have F1and Indy car gear sets, nascar cranks, rods and pistons, casidium coated lifters, etc. sitting on a shelf. Think any of them use technology you haven't heard of yet? One guy in this thread was on to something when he mentioned " coatings", but it's more than that. Go find the answer, or wait 15 years and MAYBE you'll hear about it. LMFAO

To the op, get ahold of me anytime. You come pick up or arrange the shipping and you can have either hardness tester. Merry Christmas.......If you want it shipped you pay crating and packing.

A couple people in this thread need to learn something I learned long ago....
I don't know everything......and you clearly know less. Good luck.

The difference in what i know and what you know being that you have tried to determine my knowledge of the subject simply by the interjections I included periodically in an internet forum, and subsequently reduced me to a nonsensical invalid just because I badgered you into pasting pages of information. At least I was interested in hearing what you had on your mind.

I didn't start off by telling you that you were wrong.
That would be so 15 years ago.

From my Not-So-Smart phone
 
The more I read and dig into the subject we must view the piston side of the rings as well. Still waiting to post until I have more time here. That pattern is interesting to see.
 
After reading, quite a bit has been said here. There are a few things that need to be mentioned in addition to whats already been said. Here is what Smokey Yunick recommends you try with a head or torque plate (simulating your head) on, a piston ring in the hole and a light.

Page 22 of Smokey Yunick's Power Secrets by Smokey Yunick
"Its pretty easy to get a graphic picture of this problem. Put a head plate or an old cut-up cylinder head on a cylinder block that has not already been finished with a head plate and pull the head fasteners up to the recommended torque specs. Turn the block over and push a piston ring up into the bore until it is about one inch from the top. Now, if you direct a strong light into the bore from the chamber end and look up the bore from the bottom, you should see quite a bit of light bleeding past the outer rim of the ring,

Because of distortion created by the head fasteners, the ring is sitting up on high spots in the bore, and the ring face can not seat effectively to the bore wall...

With that leakage, think about how much crankcase pressure you have. More pressure in the crankcase the more oil you have suspended and more windage is occurring = parasitic loss.

I hope this helps for anyone trying to picture the issue of sealing of the ring face (contact area of the ring) touching the bore. One thing I haven't been able to really dig into yet is Head studs verse Head bolts. More than one person, engine machinist and engine builder say there are differences between the two fastening techniques.

This bit here I read in Rick Voegelin's Engine Blueprinting about honing without enough pressure on the stones. Followed by a small piece from Smokey again.
Pg 43 Chapter 2 Cylinder block Engine Blueprinting
"If the stones simply skim across the surface of the metal without cutting, they will lay over the tiny peaks of metal left by the boring tool. This is called burnishing, and it should be avoided at all costs. A cylinder that has been burnished will wear out piston rings very quickly and can destroy the piston skirts in short order"....

Power Secrets Pg 21
"The bores in a stock cylinder block - as delivered from the factory- are just not suitable for a racing engine. As a matter of course every block- no matter what the type of brand- that's going to be used for racing must have the bores refinished with an automatic hone to produce absolutely straight, round properly sized and properly textured cylinderwalls."

Reason I posted these two on honing just shows why, if someone may try to do it themselves without the proper equipment, you can be throwing away hundreds even thousands of dollars in parts just on trying to save some bucks doing the machining when building a higher end street engine or racing mill.

More from Engine Blueprinting on page 85
"...The vast majority of automotive pistons have three ring grooves- two for compression rings and one for an oil ring. Although some racing engines pare this assortment down to a single compression ring, and some heavy-duty diesels add an extra one, three seems to be the magic number for pistons rings. Ring grooves are machined with great precision. The tops and bottoms of the grooves must be as smooth as possible to provide a sealing surface for the rings. When the engine is being pre-assembled of the pistons are being worked, the ring grooves should be protected by wrapping masking tape around the ring band"...

That is all I have time to post right now but will be posting more soon. Since the ring face has been in discussion along with the bore wall finish just take into thought that the seal is created not just by two mating surfaces retaining oil for lubrication for continued seal upward and downward travel within the bore but as something to contain pressure to drive the rotating assembly (crankshaft) through using a connecting rod. Speed changes, pressure changes and temperature fluxuations due to the basic 4 cycles of the engine the other side of the ring has quite a bit of importance as the face. Tensions can be reduced or increased during design or after manufacture. Its a matter of finding the best combination to reduce the 4, 6, or 8 cylinders of friction loss.

A thought as of right now, believe it or not, you need to include the phrase Friction Horsepower in this mix as well.
 
Frictional horsepower would be braking horsepower wouldn't it?

I'm curious about the changes in metallurgy from the dates a lot of this info came available, or at least which iron composition these guys are referring to most often.

From my Not-So-Smart phone
 
Friction HP is the amount of Horsepower NEEDED to overcome the friction within the engine to run.

Harold Bettes' book Engine Airflow Pg 41
..."The FHP or friction horsepower varies with rpm and stroke more than it varies with piston area. Pretend for a moment that an engine was running and it was not connected to any load or requirement to do work. This is the best thought of as an engine running in neutral gear. Does it use air? Does it use fuel? Of course it does. if you were to open the throttle a bit and the engine rpm...

Continuing onto Pg 42

..."increased as result, would it use more fuel? The answer is again, yes. What happens to the power that is the result of burning fuel and air? As a matter of explanation, it provides the required power to whirl all that metal"....

Brake Horsepower is the calculated output of the engine itself, total. Just remember horsepower is a result of instantaneous torque and rpm too.

It would be interesting to see what advancements have been made since these writings have been published.

I recall someone mention the Cummins Keystone ring.
What does the Duramax use for ring design?
What does Powerstroke use for ring design?

One other thing is we talk about the rings regulating the oil film and quantity 360 degrees around the bore and oil ring tension as well, BUT, if you go large or small with the scraper ring we must loo at the oil-drain-back holes in the ring land. If they aren't large enough you will soak your cylinder wall with oil and if it works up to the land between the second and first rings you will present the issue of pre-ignition due to exposure to higher temperatures and......... bye bye piston hello melted aluminum!

Anyone know how the rings deform during operation?
 
Don't forget the newer coating technologies and improvements on somewhat have been around too Biggy.
 
I'm not sure whether to describe the rotation as axial or radial. The rings turn around a cross sectional axis. They twist as a result of friction and compression.
This is the theory behind keystone rings iirc. The multifaceted design allows more opportunity to seal within the ring land and cylinder wall depending on the stroke of the piston.

I suppose I was making a comparison of braking power as in terms of frictional power dissipation in braking applications. Not bhp.
Bosch software calculates frictional power if I'm thinking of the right parameter. It accounts for about 9% of the engine load from what I've seen. JSP might have a more accurate idea from some of his dyno runs



From my Not-So-Smart phone
 
Keystone rings main purpose is to deal with carbon and soot better, I think......
Here is a **** ton of reading about most everything you guys are talking about, if your bored..........

http://vtt.fi/inf/pdf/tiedotteet/2002/T2178.pdf

This is also true. The ring lands end up with coking on the bottom interior of the ring land causing the rings to distort if there is nothing to prevent the buildup.

From my Not-So-Smart phone
 
Yeah Biggy, the tension is radially and the rotation should be axis. Thanks for the PDF Matt!
 
Keystone rings main purpose is to deal with carbon and soot better, I think......
Here is a **** ton of reading about most everything you guys are talking about, if your bored..........

http://vtt.fi/inf/pdf/tiedotteet/2002/T2178.pdf

I wanted to come back to this. My interpretation of my training was that the keystone seals better, therefore controlling combustion gas flow through the ring land, and in turn controlling carbon deposits.

Is there another mechanism I'm not considering?

From my Not-So-Smart phone
 
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