How or Why am I the only one? What is my milkshake secret?

Begle1

Begle1

Active member
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
4,168
What's going on here?
Too much water?
Too little atomization?
Too much atomization?
Oil too cold?
Not enough crankcase ventilation?
Mechanical engine problem?

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I had this happen once before a couple years ago after driving 400 miles while continuously spraying water as low as 5 PSI boost pressure; I changed the oil immediately, the oil came out looking normal and no visible water came out with it. The froth in the dipstick tube didn't come out with the oil, it went away on its own after a few hundred miles. Since then I've only sprayed water over 1000 degrees EGT and 15 PSI; I haven't noticed any milkshake in intermittent, consistent use since then.

Last two days I've made a 300 mile trip over the Grapevine. Yesterday I checked my oil after I did it and noticed nothing abnormal. Tonight I did it again and I got slimed.


Both times I've had this milkshake it's had the same effect on oil pressure; oil pressure is higher than normal at idle, drops to normal or slightly higher than normal from 1200-2500 RPM and then goes high again after that. I have no idea what numbers the stock oil pressure gauge marks relate to, but it trends consistently and repeatably. The engine is stock with half a million miles, just a turned up pump. Tonight the engine never got above 180 degrees as measured from the core plug in the head right above the thermostat housing; on flat land it was staying at 160. It was never on longer than a few seconds at a time, only a few minutes total. Majority of the time was spent between 2000-2500 RPM, occasional downshifts to around 3000 RPM. The blow-by tube has been dripping with the milkshake both times it's happened.

On the way up it drank oil at an unsettling rate; I filled up with fuel about 100 miles into the trip and the oil level was about 1/8" below the safe mark at that time, so I put a quart in. By the time I got there it was at the same point, so I put another quart in; now it's about at the same point again. There aren't any visible oil leaks; before I noticed the shake I figured I must've had a blown turbo seal.


The best theory I can come up with is that the water gets into the crankcase readily because I'm really doing something wrong. It then coagulates with the oil into a slime, which causes an increase in pressure at idle because the pump can't push it through the engine. At speed the pump can push it through the engine faster than it can suck it in, so that's what causes the pressure to drop a bit until high speed when the pump finally starts to be capable of doing both. The slime causes the crankcase to overfill itself and a lot of it goes out the blow-by tube. Within a few hundred miles the water is steamed out of the oil, leaving the oil level low. Why my system is so good at putting the water into the crank-case I don't understand, but it must either be really good at it or running a lot more than it's supposed to be.

Everything's running great for what it's worth.

I can understand doing something wrong, but it boggles the mind that I'm the only one doing something wrong to such an extreme that I'm having serious problems while nobody else is even having symptoms.
 
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my old 6.0 chevy gas motor as well as alot of others i saw do the same thing....condensation was the only logical answer me and my buddies could gather. oil was good in all motors as well
 
It's a stock engine with well advanced timing, it's got a load on it if it has 1000 degrees and 15 PSI of boost pressure... That's the point where it's spooled up and can get up to 1500 degrees and 40 PSI within a second if I step on it. Usually when I pass that point I'm too-hot within a second. The big stage kicks on and off at over 20 PSI and 1100 degrees.

I could up the settings higher, but I still don't understand what's happening.

There's definitely a correlation between the milkshake and use of water injection, it's possible that the water is lifting a head gasket and causing it but that'd be almost too quaint an explanation. My coolant level hasn't shown any fluctuation in years, but it's something I could look in to.

Maybe pull the head just to have a looksie.
 
I know when im spraying too much water when I hear a slight miss and the engine just sounds different. Cut off the water, and it goes back to normal.

So I then decreased the size of my nozzles till it only drops or holds egt's and doesn't develop the miss.

Does yours sound or act any different when the water comes on? miss? drastic egt drop?

When you say its coming on @ 1000* and 15 psi, do your temps drop with the water, or just hold steady?

While trying to 'tune' my water set-up, at one point, my egt's were cooling too much. Water would cut on, and the pyro would just start going backwards fast.

Are you seeing any of these symptoms while spraying?
 
Begle1 said:
It's a stock engine with well advanced timing, it's got a load on it if it has 1000 degrees and 15 PSI of boost pressure... That's the point where it's spooled up and can get up to 1500 degrees and 40 PSI within a second if I step on it. Usually when I pass that point I'm too-hot within a second. The big stage kicks on and off at over 20 PSI and 1100 degrees.

I could up the settings higher, but I still don't understand what's happening.

There's definitely a correlation between the milkshake and use of water injection, it's possible that the water is lifting a head gasket and causing it but that'd be almost too quaint an explanation. My coolant level hasn't shown any fluctuation in years, but it's something I could look in to.

Maybe pull the head just to have a looksie.
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I think you should up the temps a little bit. Put your big stage to cycle on and off at 1300 or so and let the little stage come on at 1200 or so. I think water issues or not you should let the egt be higher just for better burning of the fuel.
 
The engine might get a little bit smoother with the water, but that might also be the buzz, beep and vibration from the pump making me feel things. Boost goes up, it doesn't drop EGT's rapidly but it holds them steady while I keep sneaking more fuel into it than I can otherwise. The water lets me get up to 120 MPH at 1250 EGT on a hill that I can only go about 100 up at 1250 EGT without it. I've never had the water cause a miss or anything drastically noticeable. At any point if I floor the pedal the truck smokes and the pyro pegs with or without the water; there's definitely more fuel available than I can burn.

It's an automatic truck, from a stop I pass the 1000 degree and 15 PSI boost mark within a couple seconds, pass the 1250 degree and 30 PSI mark a half second later, and then stay there or higher until I get off it. So when it comes to straight-line performance I haven't noticed much any difference where I have it come on. While cruising the set-points matter more, but it still spends most of its time on over 1200 degrees while passing or going up a hill.

I have noticed that too much water at too low a set-point will cause the truck to haze black more than usual; I don't think that's desirable. But I didn't notice mine doing that this time, although it was all at night.



Regardless of tuning, I don't understand what's happening. There's all these "MPG Max" kits where guys are trickling water in constantly, I don't hear them reporting wet oil. I sure don't think my tuning is so radically far off that I'd be having problems that other people never have.
 
I'd set it to hit at 30psi boost and 1250 or better. Really no reason to be using water below there.

I don't hit till 60lbs 1350 or better and push a gal or better in a pull, lots of steam with the blow by, and never seen any condensation on the stick or cap. Just too hot to stick around.

What are you using for pump lube.....no glycol in it right? I usually look for glycol contamination when I see the goo your looking at.
 
Begle1 said:
The engine might get a little bit smoother with the water, but that might also be the buzz, beep and vibration from the pump making me feel things. Boost goes up, it doesn't drop EGT's rapidly but it holds them steady while I keep sneaking more fuel into it than I can otherwise. The water lets me get up to 120 MPH at 1250 EGT on a hill that I can only go about 100 up at 1250 EGT without it. I've never had the water cause a miss or anything drastically noticeable. At any point if I floor the pedal the truck smokes and the pyro pegs with or without the water; there's definitely more fuel available than I can burn.

It's an automatic truck, from a stop I pass the 1000 degree and 15 PSI boost mark within a couple seconds, pass the 1250 degree and 30 PSI mark a half second later, and then stay there or higher until I get off it. So when it comes to straight-line performance I haven't noticed much any difference where I have it come on. While cruising the set-points matter more, but it still spends most of its time on over 1200 degrees while passing or going up a hill.

I have noticed that too much water at too low a set-point will cause the truck to haze black more than usual; I don't think that's desirable. But I didn't notice mine doing that this time, although it was all at night.



Regardless of tuning, I don't understand what's happening. There's all these "MPG Max" kits where guys are trickling water in constantly, I don't hear them reporting wet oil. I sure don't think my tuning is so radically far off that I'd be having problems that other people never have.
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Actually somewhere in the interwebby is hidden a report of mine where I was experiencing wet oil with the mpg max kit. It occurred if I had the 175ml nozzle coming on at 5 psi and cruising boost was 6 psi. I normally set mine for 6 psi around home and 9 or 10 for cruising and I haven't had a problem since.
 
lorendiesel5.9 said:
Actually somewhere in the interwebby is hidden a report of mine where I was experiencing wet oil with the mpg max kit. It occurred if I had the 175ml nozzle coming on at 5 psi and cruising boost was 6 psi. I normally set mine for 6 psi around home and 9 or 10 for cruising and I haven't had a problem since.
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Was it the same type of grey frothy slime that I'm seeing?
 
Maybe this is part of it?

Begle1 said:
The engine is stock with half a million miles
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My first thought was there are plenty of guys running a mpg-max kit out there without problems. They spray water at low boost levels all the time. But I don't know many guys with that many miles on their trucks either...

How much water are you injecting with the different stages?
 
GOT-Torque said:
My first thought was there are plenty of guys running a mpg-max kit out there without problems. They spray water at low boost levels all the time. But I don't know many guys with that many miles on their trucks either...
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Why would an old engine have problems with it whereas a new engine wouldn't? Increased blow-by, but I don't have blow-by severe enough that this should be an uncommon occurrence. I might have 50% more blow by, but does that mean I have 90-100% more water contamination?

Max flow is around 2/3 GPM, the smallest stage is significantly less. I need to look at how it's programmed at the moment to know for sure.
 
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Begle1 said:
Was it the same type of grey frothy slime that I'm seeing?
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Yup and it only showed up on the dipstick. I never pulled a valve cover tho. I think what happens is it doesn't all turn to steam and sits on top of the rings between the piston and cylinder wall. Eventually it gets forced past the rings into the oil where its until the engine cools off enough to make it condense. If you would drop the oil pan I bet it looks the same way on the inner block surfaces.
 
lorendiesel5.9 said:
Yup and it only showed up on the dipstick. I never pulled a valve cover tho. I think what happens is it doesn't all turn to steam and sits on top of the rings between the piston and cylinder wall. Eventually it gets forced past the rings into the oil where its until the engine cools off enough to make it condense. If you would drop the oil pan I bet it looks the same way on the inner block surfaces.
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Really? It just "sits" there? Like in a bubble? Protected magically from all the heat of combustion?


Too much too soon...old rings don't help much! Not enough heat
 
Begle1 said:
Why would an old engine have problems with it whereas a new engine wouldn't? Increased blow-by, but I don't have blow-by severe enough that this should be an uncommon occurrence. I might have 50% more blow by, but does that mean I have 90-100% more water contamination?

Max flow is around 2/3 GPM, the smallest stage is significantly less. I need to look at how it's programmed at the moment to know for sure.
Click to expand...


Another reason is if you put some heat in the engine the piston will swell a little more. Seriously target the EGT at 1250, you might even experience better performance.
 
I think you should let the motor breathe more, and let the motor get a little hotter, like the others say. Maybe just use the late stage only. Just my opinion
 
What I should do is one thing, and I'll agree.

But the real question is why I have such a problem? Just a perfect storm of injecting too much water too early in a too-old engine with not enough airflow? I'd rather if it was one singular thing...
 
Begle1 said:
Why would an old engine have problems with it whereas a new engine wouldn't? Increased blow-by, but I don't have blow-by severe enough that this should be an uncommon occurrence. I might have 50% more blow by, but does that mean I have 90-100% more water contamination?

Max flow is around 2/3 GPM, the smallest stage is significantly less. I need to look at how it's programmed at the moment to know for sure.
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This is a common occurance in my engine when i run the water, with my big charger. It comes from the water passing the rings as a vapor then accumulating in different areas of the engine and mine is alot worse then yours. Any blow by at all at idle will be multipled at different rpms do to cylinder pressure and the non burning water will only add to the equation. I did a leak down on my engine and all 6 cylinders were under 10% leak down. The leak down was done at 100psi so if a engine runs at 3000-4000 psi cylinder pressure what %blow by will it have? ALOT, i am loosing 300-400 psi passed the rings, so your half million mile engine at 1800-2500 rpm with advanced timing will have alot of blow by that you wont see driving it under a load. Want to really find out what the % is run a leak down on cylinder 1, im willing to bet its atleast 15-20%. The temps you have it coming on at are extremely low also, i would set it at around 1250-1300
 
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